Borden vs St. Jean

[Dog]

Okay, I'm curious, does it matter where you do your BMQ?

I was talking to a guy I know who is in the reserves, and he said that it's better to do your BMQ in St. Jean because it's a better base, and it's got better instructors, guys at battalion will respect your St jean experience more.... blahblahblah. Is this true? I think it's likely he's full of it, but what do I know?

Personally, I can't really see how it would be a big deal, after all, it's just BMQ (not implying that it will be easy, so take a deep breath and keep reading). You really prove yourself in you SQ and MOC, right?

If there are differences, what are they?

 

[chrisf]

You don't prove yourself in any of the courses, you prove yourself at your unit.

Bad soldiers come out of St. Jean, good soldiers come out of St. Jean. Bad soldiers come out of Borden, good soldiers come out of Borden.  Bad soldiers come out of a weekend militia course, good soldiers come out of a weekend militia course.

Don't bother judging anyone by what courses they've done in the past or where they've done those courses, judge them by how they soldier now.

 

[NavComm]

Personally I've never heard that one is better than the other. I had excellent instructors at Borden, one of the guys from my unit (navres) just came back from St. Jean and upon comparing notes, we basically agreed both were identical courses taught by very qualified instructors. He said St. Jean is just an awesome base, but then I guess Borden is too. I was pretty impressed with the indoor field and all the facilities we had at Borden.

IMO some people just like comparisons for the sake of comparisons, if you were going to St. Jean instead of Borden (or vice-versa) someone will sh*t all over that too. So just nod, agree and walk away

 

[Dog]

I understand that proving yourself a worthy soldier is always an ongoing process, and that simply passing a course doesn't mean you have the everlasting respect of everyone you are going to work with, that's not what I meant. The aforementioned friend of mine is someone who might disagree with you, he has a lousy work ethic, and believes that what he did 3 years ago means he's somehow got the slack to sit back and rest on his laurels. I think he's got a lousy work ethic. But that's not what this post was about....

Thanks for the response, guys.

 

[Thaedes]

Doesn't matter where your BMQ - everything that you learn there is merely to prepare you for future courses.  Very little of what you learn there will have any bearing on your MOC courses.  If you're going combat arms, expect that once you reach wherever you'll be doing your SQ that your instructors will say something along these lines - " Take everything you learned at that St. Jean place and throw it away. (etc etc).  "

As for the caliber of instructors, well again thats an individual thing.  Course content is managed by Standards, so you'll see little difference in the content in either of the places.

As for bragging that you went through BMQ at once place as opposed to another, thats plain out ridiculous.  No one will care in your unit.  If you go infantry for instance, even your Battle School is looked as a joke in unit to those who've been around awhile.  It's what you do when you get to your unit that counts, don't let anyone fool you otherwise.

 

[JSR OP]

I've seen pers come from Cornwallis, St Jean, Borden, Petawawa, Ottawa, Both Reg and Reserve.  doesn't much matter.  I've seen good and bad soldiers, sailors and Airmen com from all of them.

 

[Gouki]

I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:

From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis.

We couldn't help but think that, this would never be tolerated in St. Jean for a minute, and many of the aforementioned people I know who are, at heart, good people, actually developed sort of a resentful attitude towards the recruits for not having to go through the same crap they did.

I think the biggest thing that irked my course personally and a few MP's I knew, was that there were recruits in the H Club walking around thinking they're big shots and more than a few had some attitudes, even with a few MCpl's which I couldn't believe they were getting away with.

I thought I'd toss this out there, because I was one of the people who was a bit put off by how things appeared. Plus, someone had to balance out the topic with a different view.

 

[NL_engineer]

I suppose I'll have to stick my head out for someone to plink off and say this:

From what I and my friends on our threes (and other people on their 3's/5's I've talked to personally) seen, can't say I have been really impressed with what I saw the recruits doing in Borden. Seen them way too many times in civvies walking (not marching) around, heading to Canex, the movies etc. The weekend I can understand but the weeknight.. which seemed to be almost every weeknight, we saw lots of them walking around. In uniform, same thing, half (that I saw, again, mind you) never marched, and many talked and moved around way too much while formed up. At Pizza Hut, while we were waiting for our order to come through, we seen some chatting it up with one of their instructors and laughing and what not on a way too casual and friendly basis.

We couldn't help but think that, this would never be tolerated in St. Jean for a minute, and many of the aforementioned people I know who are, at heart, good people, actually developed sort of a resentful attitude towards the recruits for not having to go through the same crap they did.

I think the biggest thing that irked my course personally and a few MP's I knew, was that there were recruits in the H Club walking around thinking they're big shots and more than a few had some attitudes, even with a few MCpl's which I couldn't believe they were getting away with.

I thought I'd toss this out there, because I was one of the people who was a bit put off by how things appeared. Plus, someone had to balance out the topic with a different view.

I'll start by saying this: Different instruction methods yield different results.

The two main instruction methods used are the "NEW" way (less yelling, more like a school) and the "OLD" (Full Metal Jacket style). For both there are pros and cons; for example the army is moving towards the helping/defending the population then waiting for the Russian tank charge. When you are dealing with locals, let me rephrase that, if you were a local how would you want to see the foreran army in your land; as helpers or occupiers?

If you were a training officer for a factory and a school you would have to train both in different ways. Back to the army, the OLD way is more like training people to work in a factory; this is because we were waiting for the “Charge of the Light Brigade”, the civy equivalent to “The Round Pin goes in the Round Whole”. With the NEW way each soldier has to think on there feet and act in a way respectful to the local population; civy side you are going to train teachers to think and ask questions, you would not want that in a factory.

Now for training methods; yelling, screaming, imposable standards, etc. can lead to the occupier’s aptitude (my conclusion) The pros are a more disciplined and respectful army, but all the thinking is going on at the higher levels. In my opinion this is not what you need when you are dealing with locals; “Kicking in the Door” of a house witch intel said the terrorist ring leader lives, only to find a woman and small children. The New relaxed approach does not give you the same disciplined soldier as the old one but it will give you one that learns yes learns (unlike the old way); back to civy side: If a employee thinks there opinion/voice is herd they will be happier and as a result work harder. With the situation always changing the lower levels have to be able to think for them self and adapt to the changing situation without having to wait for the senior officers to decide how to react (the people on the ground know what is happening, and training will tell them how to react). This should eliminate the Black Hawk Down scenario were the different groups are held up in buildings getting over run. Also the relaxed training method can improve a soldiers “People Skills” in effect, the “I am Better then You” altitude is not there; and the soldiers are better able to relate and help, then occupy.


That’s my 2 cents worth, but what do I know I am only a reserve Cpl, who is studding
Human Resources.

 

[Gouki]

I fully see and understand what you're saying, however the entirety of what I witnessed just struck me as wrong somehow

 

[Hoover]

Yes, while on BMQ the instructors put a leash on you and you strain it as much as possible! Every platoon in Borden did it and we all suffered for it!

Recruits in the H club? We were only allowed in the O club, and not even all of us were allowed in there!

 

[delta24]

THe difference between Borden and SJ, the training environment for one thing, in SJ you're pretty much surrounded by francophones and quebequios whereas at Borden mainly english speaking recruits. This plays a rather huge and overwhelming role on the emotional side of training, imagine feeling completely alienated, away from home and all that you have grown up to know and feel. The lonliness and the seemingly short regret of getting into somethng you know nothing about. I know youth who have spent their entire youth in cadats and they take off all gun ho to BMQ thinking cadets... cadets... its just going to be like cadets but... uhoh!! Next thing you know they're all alone in a place where they know nothing of and the first thing they think of is "what the..." I've heard that in Borden it is a lot tougher mentally because of the crappy Ontario weather and the grey feeling of depression one gets from being there for so long. To make a long story short, training on any base is always different from the other bases you may go in your BE with the military and it is like this for any military entity. So don't listen to any one who tells you "this base is tougher then that one," because they're all equally tough to complete BMQ at but they have their own cheracteristics that make them that way.

 

[Gouki]

Yes, while on BMQ the instructors put a leash on you and you strain it as much as possible! Every platoon in Borden did it and we all suffered for it!

Recruits in the H club? We were only allowed in the O club, and not even all of us were allowed in there!

They were in the H club. It was Thursday night and unless it was that crack I smoked earlier, I heard a large group of them bragging about the field and whatever else they did to some girls, being regulars there, weren't impressed. The fact that no one has ever seen their faces before, they all had near shaved heads etc just made it more obvious...ignoring that they admitted the fact that is.

I dunno how much the restriction to the O Club was enforced but obviously not enough.

Borden tougher mentally? I think 90% of the people on training there who went through St. Jean would argue that. As for the weather ... actually, this year it was relatively nice, it didn't start getting cold until the 1st of December, and there were quite a few warm and sunny days in there. Then again, I'm from Manitoba so what do I know about nice weather

 

[NL_engineer]

I know youth who have spent their entire youth in cadets and they take off all gun ho to BMQ thinking cadets... cadets... its just going to be like cadets but... uhoh!! Next thing you know they're all alone in a place where they know nothing of and the first thing they think of is "what the..." I've heard that in Borden it is a lot tougher mentally because of the crappy Ontario weather and the grey feeling of depression one gets from being there for so long.

I'm not reg-force so I can't comment on the course differences; but on my BMQ (res. old supperman course in Gagetown) the first 2 people to quit were ex cadets.

As I said in my last post on this thread, the army is changing. The old "Full Metal Jacket" style of training does not get numbers in the real world. When I look back at my QL3 it doesn't compear to the Sect. Member course today (large change in under 4 years). I will also go as far as to say that the BMQ in Borden and St. Jean, has changed from what most of you guys have done to more relaxed course.

just my two cents

 

[canadianblue]

I found my course to be tough, however I don't think its the location of the course as much as the instructors which determine how hard a course is. On my 13 week BMQ we had most infantry sergeants and master corporals teaching the course, which I believe may have made it a little bit tougher. I've heard of some courses were the instructors more or less babied the course, but once again that is only what I have heard while I was at St Jean. I talked to a former member of my platoon that was recoursed due to an injury, and in his new NCM platoon they lived in much nicer bunks in the blue sector, as well the instructors were easier with them then the instructors on my course. I personally think it comes down to what instructors you have.

My own 0.02 cents.

 

[janedoe]

Well i did try to search function before anyone jumps me and found nothing. What is the differance between basic in St Jean and Borden. Everyone I know has gone to St. Jean and it seems everyone goes there but me . They are sending me to Borden. So what is the differance really?

 

[9nr Domestic]

http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/37200.0.html

 

[aesop081]

Well i did try to search function before anyone jumps me and found nothing. What is the differance between basic in St Jean and Borden. Everyone I know has gone to St. Jean and it seems everyone goes there but me . They are sending me to Borden. So what is the differance really?

St-jean is in Quebec.....Borden is in Ontario  ;D

Basic is basic........good luck

 

[Wookilar]

Poison Ivy. Lots of it in Borden. This is no joke either. When you do anything in the training area, have a look around. If you don't know what it looks like, ask. I didn't and I really wish I had. Having your arms and chest covered in blisters for a few weeks was not a lot of fun. And yes, I had a shirt on. Pepper potting to take an objective, then lying there to hold it. I picked a real nice spot for me and my C-6. Gig dummy that I was.
Also, not too many stairs in Borden. Depending on which shacks they have you in, the most you will have is 4 flights (and they are short ones at that).
You will still do the same course, same schedule, same pt, same classes, same type of instructors. Just different scenery. Don't be too disappointed.

Wasaga Beach is excellent when you get a day off (eventually).

 

[janedoe]

Thank You. I honestly did do a search grrrrrrr Well from reading that guess there is no differance except the language which in that case thank god I got Borden.

 

[janedoe]

St-jean is in Quebec.....Borden is in Ontario  ;D

Basic is basic........good luck

LOL Way to sum it up. Thanks for the chuckle.