14 Nov 12: Israel Launches Operations in Gaza

[cupper]

Because after 1800 years you can't go, "Hey buddy, that's my seat." They can return, but kicking out the people living there for centuries or longer and taking their stuff is wrong.

Lets not overlook what happened in the intervening two millennia. There were the Arab conquest, the Crusades, the Mongol invasion, the Turks, the Ottoman Empire, European colonialism. WWI lead to the creation of what would eventually be known as Palestine (Israel and the Palestinian Territories plus part of the Sinai) governed by the British. Post WWII we had the partition of Palestine into a Jewish and Arab state, accepted by Jewish Leaders, but rejected by the Arabs, resulting in a civil war. And so on up to today.

Add to all of this the religious significance of the region to Christians, Jews and Muslims.

This is a little oversimplified, but I'm sure that you can understand my point, that to say one group or another has a specific "claim" that continues across the centuries that trumps any other groups "claim" would be like tilting at windmills.

 

[midget-boyd91]

For anyone interested:
The Iron Dome missile defense in action at night.
VERY impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVefOuwHFh8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxwCYZ6Zhew

 

[Nemo888]

For anyone interested:
The Iron Dome missile defense in action at night.
VERY impressive.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVefOuwHFh8&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MxwCYZ6Zhew

Impressive that they now need to spend billions protecting themselves from the hungry mobs in the internment camps who have no navy, air force and a negligible army.  They can't spend treasure like that forever. The only way out of an insurgency where you are morally wrong is to change your doctrine. Applying more force only makes the enemy doctrinally stronger and eats up more of your resources. Basic COIN. (Though if you have the stomach for it you could kill all 1.7 million of them. That has worked before in the region. )

It looks to me that Israel has no idea how to deal with the mess they put themselves in.  They make the classic COIN blunder. They think that because they have resources and territory their victory is assured and their doctrinal weakness is irrelevant. It shocking how many times that has been disproved this century.

 

[midget-boyd91]

Impressive that they now need to spend billions protecting themselves from the hungry mobs in the internment camps who have no navy, air force and a negligible army.  They can't spend treasure like that forever. The only way out of an insurgency where you are morally wrong is to change your doctrine. Applying more force only makes the enemy doctrinally stronger and eats up more of your resources. Basic COIN. (Though if you have the stomach for it you could kill all 1.7 million of them. That has worked before in the region. )

It looks to me that Israel has no idea how to deal with the mess they put themselves in.  They make the classic COIN blunder. They think that because they have resources and territory their victory is assured and their doctrinal weakness is irrelevant. It shocking how many times that has been disproved this century.

.... yeah, I was just gonna leave it at "impressive."   

 

[Jarnhamar]

Impressive that they now need to spend billions protecting themselves from the hungry mobs in the internment camps who have no navy, air force and a negligible army. 

Do you understand the psychological effects that are caused in people when they are subject to random deadly attacks in which they have no means of immediate retaliation or cannot even see who is attacking them?

Do you know how PTSD works and how it's basically caused?

It sounds as if you discredit the psychological harm that random missiles cause in people in this case simply because there have not been a high kill ratio.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Impressive that they now need to spend billions protecting themselves from the hungry mobs in the internment camps who have no navy, air force and a negligible army.  They can't spend treasure like that forever. The only way out of an insurgency where you are morally wrong is to change your doctrine. Applying more force only makes the enemy doctrinally stronger and eats up more of your resources. Basic COIN. (Though if you have the stomach for it you could kill all 1.7 million of them. That has worked before in the region. )

It looks to me that Israel has no idea how to deal with the mess they put themselves in.  They make the classic COIN blunder. They think that because they have resources and territory their victory is assured and their doctrinal weakness is irrelevant. It shocking how many times that has been disproved this century.

:bullshit:

It is the first duty of the nation state to defend itself and its citizens; that's a duty at which Israel excels and at which Hamas is a miserable failure. In fact Hamas, contrary to customary international law, uses its citizens as human shields ... an act which is both cowardly and beyond the pale of the normal, moral conduct of war. Israel is acting in a proper, civilized manner, as befits a culturally sophisticated, liberal democracy; Hamas acts like what it is: a band of cowardly, sniveling terrorists, hiding behind the skirts of old women and babes in arms.

And because you are clearly a troll:  :ignore:

 

[CBH99]

I wouldnt go on to label someone a troll so quickly.  Just because they have a point of view different than your own, doesnt automatically make them a troll.

His thoughts were articulated in a manner befitting of someone who understands the subject matter at a level adequate enough to make some decent points.  And honestly, I agree with some of the points he made.

-  Bulldozing houses & villages to make room for more Israeli settlements is NOT befitting of a civilized country.  This has been expressed by both the US and the UN - especially with the level of force and often times un-announced intentions of the Israeli government to do so.

-  I understand that Hamas launches attacks from highly populated civilian areas, into Israel.  And Israel obviously has a right to defend itself and its citizens.  However, using WP in highly populated areas in Gaza is NOT befitting of a civilized country either.  (And dont say they dont, because there is plenty of footage of them doing so, as well as more than a member or two on here who Im sure has served in the area.)

-  Hamas is definately evil, no doubt about that.  Launching rockets indiscriminately into civilian areas is cowardly and evil - no argument from me there.

-  He has a point, Israel is actually terrible at COIN.  Bulldozing homes and villages in order to forcefully expand your territory and repopulate it with your own settlements does absolutely NOTHING beneficial to the peace process, despite what you seem to somehow think. 

Does it anger people and polarize them against an Israel they see as treating them with utter contempt?  Absolutely.  Does it piss people off who lose everything they own, just so Israel can build a condo building where their home used to be?  You bet it does.  Does it leave angry, near poverty, unemployed young men an enemy they can direct their anger at, an enemy that is actually very much tangible to them?  Yes, it does that too. 

Israel might be fantastic at security.  But its COIN doctrine is flawed, I agree.  You dont battle an insurgency by going out of your way to create more insurgents, or using indiscriminate weaponry yourself (i.e. white phosphorous) in areas where you know civilians are going to be injured.

Guess that makes me a troll too...

 

[GAP]

I guess

 

[Edward Campbell]

I define "troll" as someone who posts provocative and inflammatory remarks with the intention of provoking outrage or an emotional response or disrupting the normal flow of discussion. In my opinion, and it's the only one that matters since it is my ignore function, Nemo888 qualifies.

I post provocative remarks, but my intention is to stimulate discussion, not to derail it. I like to think that is helpful rather than trolling.

There is much that is debatable* about Israel's strategy, which is why I cited Sun Tzu yesterday. What is not debatable, but which the troll wants to introduce in order to derail the discussion, is the fundamental differences between Hamas and Hezbollah on one side and Israel on the other.

_____
* If you would like to have a really useless and totally sterile debate think about UN Res 242 (1967) and the strategic constipation that results.

 

[Nemo888]

Hamas are monsters. You'll get no argument from me. But with the perspective of the last half century they are monsters the Israeli's created through their own evil actions. Until they admit that the monsters will not stop growing and the conflict will only escalate.

 

[Teeps74]

Fact is, the point has been made that Israel is not even attempting to follow COIN doctrine, has not bothered since day one... As a result, we have an insurgency that has actually been getting stronger for the past half century, one that feeds other insurgencies around the world.

Would it really be so wrong to change up doctrine and realize that the PEOPLE are more important then the land? The constant expansion of the settlements is a real justified reason for people to be upset... And this is not even taking into account the reports of settler terrorism committed against Palestinians.

(Sorry, I can not defend the one uniformed military which murdered one of ours in cold blood. And so, on that note, I will bow out.)

 

[George Wallace]

Going back to 1948, we see quite  a different picture of the Region.  Israeli "terrorists" attacking British troops, police, infrastructure, businesses and organizations.  How times have changed.

 

[Jarnhamar]

You never answered my question Nemo.

 

[Nemo888]

Obedient Zelum,

I did not say the rocket attacks were not evil. The attacks are primarily at the settlers who have whittled away their territory. It is an act of desperation after having their entirely legitimate grievances ignored for decades. Like why did you steal all our land and throw us in a defacto prison camp for fifty years?

The Palestinians are the poorest people in the Middle East and as poor as South Saharan Africans. Since 2007 they were deprived of food water and electricity. Many camps like Khan Yunis don't even have running water now that Israel has taken over Palestinian aquifers. They are nuts now. I think understandably so. After 1800 years a bunch of what they consider Europeans come, take their land and put them in camps. Every year they advance and take more land away and collectively punish them for the actions of a few rebels. The rebels, and they are not many of the 1.7 million interned, see it as the only way to resist that makes a dent in their enemy. If the West cut off military aid I expect the Israelis would feel it financially in a few years and have to make a deal. It is counter productive supporting Israel's current strategy. They either have to start negotiations and admit how they helped create the problem or become more evil and just wipe them out.

I gave up on Israel after the murder of our UN observer as well. My dad was a peacekeeper there in the 50's.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Obedient Zelum,

I did not say the rocket attacks were not evil. The attacks are primarily at the settlers who have whittled away their territory. It is an act of desperation after having their entirely legitimate grievances ignored for decades. Like why did you steal all our land and throw us in a defacto prison camp for fifty years?

The Palestinians are the poorest people in the Middle East and as poor as South Saharan Africans. Since 2007 they were deprived of food water and electricity. Many camps like Khan Yunis don't even have running water now that Israel has taken over Palestinian aquifers. They are nuts now. I think understandably so. After 1800 years a bunch of what they consider Europeans come, take their land and put them in camps. Every year they advance and take more land away and collectively punish them for the actions of a few rebels terrorists  The rebels terrorists. , and they are not many (44% of the population according to some figures posted above). of the 1.7 million interned, see it as the only way to resist that makes a dent in their enemy. If the West cut off military aid I expect the Israelis would feel it financially in a few years and have to make a deal. It is counter productive supporting Israel's current strategy. They either have to start negotiations and admit how they helped create the problem or become more evil and just wipe them out.

I gave up on Israel after the murder of our UN observer as well. My dad was a peacekeeper there in the 50's.

TFTFY

 

[Infanteer]

They make the classic COIN blunder.

-  He has a point, Israel is actually terrible at COIN. 

Fact is, the point has been made that Israel is not even attempting to follow COIN doctrine, has not bothered since day one...

The situation in Gaza is not an insurgency, so why mention COIN?  All this indicates to me is that you do not know what COIN is and you do not have a real understanding of the situation.

 

[Nemo888]

44% with 55% voter turnout.  So 24% of eligible voters. Not a good argument for collective punishments.

An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority. If is not that then what is it?

 

[Infanteer]

An insurgency is an armed rebellion against a constituted authority. If is not that then what is it?

Is Israel the constituted authority in Gaza?

 

[Teeps74]

The situation in Gaza is not an insurgency, so why mention COIN?  All this indicates to me is that you do not know what COIN is and you do not have a real understanding of the situation.

I have a very strong knowledge of both. Don;t want to call it an insurgency? Fine, terrorist actions that have EXACTLY the same motivations. Feel better?

 

[Infanteer]

Don;t want to call it an insurgency? Fine, terrorist actions that have EXACTLY the same motivations. Feel better?

That's fine.

If people aren't consistent and accurate in their use of terminology then we misdiagnose the problem, leading to misinformed debate.