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CMMA - replacing the CP140 Aurora

Housing Market Report for November 2023

Current North Bay MLS® stats indicate an average house price of $169,900 and 47 new listings in the last 28 days. As of today, North Bay housing data shows median days on market for a home is 3 days.
 
CFB North Bay
No airside property anymore. Everything was sold off and pretty much all occupied, even the Cold War era hangars. Even at that, I'm not sure there would be enough property to handle those big critters.

In the name of patience - 300 km from Ottawa and Toronto, 150 km from Georgian Bay and Cottage Country, lots of water front property and 400 km south of Winnipeg and all major population centres in Western Canada.

Its not exactly Siberia.
If we want the entire military in major centres to help recruiting, the costs in land and salaries to keep privates out of food banks would be eye watering. I know some have mentioned that place like Borden are close enough. When you are dealing with urban youth who view anything north of Bloor St. as the far side of the moon, it might not be.

Our kid lives in North Bay and we moved here in July. Lots to recommend it unless the centre of your life is clubs and trendy bistros. Sorry, only one Starbucks.
 
No airside property anymore. Everything was sold off and pretty much all occupied, even the Cold War era hangars. Even at that, I'm not sure there would be enough property to handle those big critters.


If we want the entire military in major centres to help recruiting, the costs in land and salaries to keep privates out of food banks would be eye watering. I know some have mentioned that place like Borden are close enough. When you are dealing with urban youth who view anything north of Bloor St. as the far side of the moon, it might not be.

Our kid lives in North Bay and we moved here in July. Lots to recommend it unless the centre of your life is clubs and trendy bistros. Sorry, only one Starbucks.
Has the UN been called yet about the “only one Starbucks in North Bay“ situation?
 
could this be what Bombardier is playing for? Run the clock until Boeing closes down, then they are more or less guaranteed the sale.
Except like now, they didn't have an aircraft to offer as an alternative to the C-17...so not necessarily guaranteed the sale, since they had nothing to sell.

If they had run out the clock and we ended up not able to buy the C-17, we'd probably have gone with the A-400M...an aircraft some countries are looking to divest from their fleets (not sure why) but don't do anything as good as a C-17


It blows me away that a company like Bombardier can design the most environmentally friendly aircraft in the world, with some of the longest ranges of commercial airliners and business jets, and design an airliner that made Boeing have an aneurysm...yet it can't design a simple plane that does what they know we are looking for.

If Brasil can say "Seems to be a need for aircraft with a rear cargo ramp that can transport a decent amount of cargo, but isn't anywhere near as expensive as a C-17...let's design and market a plane to serve that market"...and yet bombardier can't seem to be bothered...


They are getting as much out of this project as they put in 🤷🏼‍♂️🥂
 
No airside property anymore. Everything was sold off and pretty much all occupied, even the Cold War era hangars. Even at that, I'm not sure there would be enough property to handle those big critters.


If we want the entire military in major centres to help recruiting, the costs in land and salaries to keep privates out of food banks would be eye watering. I know some have mentioned that place like Borden are close enough. When you are dealing with urban youth who view anything north of Bloor St. as the far side of the moon, it might not be.

Our kid lives in North Bay and we moved here in July. Lots to recommend it unless the centre of your life is clubs and trendy bistros. Sorry, only one Starbucks.
My comment was meant as sarcasm lads... (I may be dry, bur surely not do dry my sarcasm isn't noticeable?)

I have no doubt North Bay is nice. It sounds like the kind of place that would have a healthy sense of community, safe, with good schools & hopefully good neighbours :)

The weather also seems WAAAAYYYYY nicer than the prairie provinces in the winter time!

It just SOUNDS so isolated...




It's like potential RCMP applicants learning they may in fact get posted to Cambridge Bay, Nunavut for a while. While it may not dissuade some, it certainly isn't a selling feature that appeals to most!
 
It blows me away that a company like Bombardier can design the most environmentally friendly aircraft in the world, with some of the longest ranges of commercial airliners and business jets
Do we not need to replace the executive fleet?
 
Do we not need to replace the executive fleet?
I think it's a good idea, personally.

But 4 new jets with the same configuration, avionics that aren't so outdated we need a special exception, support Canadian jobs & a Canadian business -- it's a solid win from all angles I would think
 
Except like now, they didn't have an aircraft to offer as an alternative to the C-17...so not necessarily guaranteed the sale, since they had nothing to sell.

If they had run out the clock and we ended up not able to buy the C-17, we'd probably have gone with the A-400M...an aircraft some countries are looking to divest from their fleets (not sure why) but don't do anything as good as a C-17


It blows me away that a company like Bombardier can design the most environmentally friendly aircraft in the world, with some of the longest ranges of commercial airliners and business jets, and design an airliner that made Boeing have an aneurysm...yet it can't design a simple plane that does what they know we are looking for.

If Brasil can say "Seems to be a need for aircraft with a rear cargo ramp that can transport a decent amount of cargo, but isn't anywhere near as expensive as a C-17...let's design and market a plane to serve that market"...and yet bombardier can't seem to be bothered...


They are getting as much out of this project as they put in 🤷🏼‍♂️🥂
Embraer didnt and doesnt exactly do things without Brazilian government money and theres not a lot of evidence that the Canadian government has ever been interested in Canadian planes at least recently.

Bombardier screwed up designing and redesigning multiple aircraft at the same time while stubbornly holding on to the one division (rail) that was the albatross
 
According to the one of the major Canadian media companies, a Crown Corporation - (The Canadian Commercial Corporation or CCC is a federal Crown corporation mandated to support the growth of international trade by helping Canadian exporters gain access to foreign government procurement markets.) is joining forces with the axis of evil to attempt to thwart the P8 buy and saddle the CAF with another orphan aircraft that will never be bought by another country.
 
CCC's mandate is to sell overseas, not in Canada.
Hmm, weird that the Bombardier presser doesn’t mention that little tidbit…

Will Smith Reaction GIF
 
Back to the business of replacing the Aurora.

Swap.

This is the kind of Industrial Transfer Benefits I can support.

In September 2023, it was reported that India is interested in procuring up to 40 units and Sweden in 4 aircraft, both negotiations with the possibility of exchange between defence systems, with more Saab JAS 39 Gripen fighters for the Brazilian Air Force, and Akash surface-to-air missiles and Dhanush 155mm howitzer for the Brazilian Army.[102][103][104]


Brazil swaps C-390s for Swedish Gripens and for Indian howitzers and Medium Range SAMs.

After listening to Flynn's commentary about the advantages of paying the 10% commission on Foreign Military Sales perhaps we would be better off pursuing Government to Government contracts rather than Government to Business contracts. Apparently the FMS approach comes with more market support.

Government of Canada agrees to buy F35s with market support from US DoD.
Government of Canada agrees to sell GDLS LAVs, Rheinmetall AD, Rheinmetall PATH autonomy kits and UGVs, GDOTS 81mm, 84mm, 105mm and 155mm rounds, wings, engines, landing gear, fuses, shotguns ....

The regime is already in place.

 
CCC's mandate is to sell overseas, not in Canada.

Materiel​

Marginal note: Delivery of materiel for sale or disposal

11 The Governor in Council may authorize the Minister to deliver to any department or agency of the Government of Canada, for sale or disposal to any countries or international welfare organizations and on any terms that the Governor in Council may determine, any materiel that has not been declared surplus and is not immediately required for the use of the Canadian Forces or for any other purpose under this Act.

  • R.S., 1985, c. N-5, s. 11
  • 1998, c. 35, s. 3


From the National Defence Act

First order of business after the usual Admin.

DND as broker of goods and services

And that is how you finance the CAF.

PSPC buys Canadian Goods and Services, "sells" them to DND at zero dollars, DND "sells" or "donates" them to accredited foreign and international buyers and "buys" goods and services in return. And is allowed to charge a small service charge or commission. Based on the FMS standard 5 to 10% is probably appropriate.

What is the Extension for the DND Sales Department?
 
Further to my last....

The sales team / Military Attaches can work out of Canada's Commissions, Embassies and Consulates.
 


From the National Defence Act

First order of business after the usual Admin.

DND as broker of goods and services

And that is how you finance the CAF.

PSPC buys Canadian Goods and Services, "sells" them to DND at zero dollars, DND "sells" or "donates" them to accredited foreign and international buyers and "buys" goods and services in return. And is allowed to charge a small service charge or commission. Based on the FMS standard 5 to 10% is probably appropriate.

What is the Extension for the DND Sales Department?

Where to start?......

First Bombardier.....As a part of receiving government help and financing over the years Bombardier was not to become a defence contractor. (No AVRO again) They could not develop Defence only products period. With the relative recent paring back of the corporation to just biz jets they are freed of that commitment. Also Bombardier's only short to medium growth areas are Gov, Defence and special mission areas. So there is the push. Now add the political aspect of current Government, Laurentian elite and Quebec Inc. pure hate of Boeing and here we are.

Other points, one example going back years Kory Teneycke (well he is the one that told me) wanted to "buy Canadian" with defence procurement, he even said even it cost 3 times as much. (this is the basis of National Shipbuilding Program) The thinking was that that it would help build a natural Conservative base in with a large Canadian MIC. The Harper government did start down this path but a recession, Afgan war and budget realities came first. Plus the realization that many of the workers were CAW (now UNIFOR) and their leaders are very much NDP/LIberals. Add to the fact that Liberals for years have work the opposite plan. Example Bombardier.

Plus there is a look that the current political parts of the gov want to push any real programs to the right.
 
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