Force Protection failure in Greece: RCN ship vandalized

https://twitter.com/x/status/1505298830379601926

NST had provided security the last time an HMC ship was in that port. Apparently no measures in place this time around.

Facebook comment from a former NST NCO:

''Lots of silly comments from people who think they know all about Force Protection. First, when we stood up NST in the exact same port we had two check points and a guarded gate with spike strips and Greek police manning those gates. Second, you would never open fire on people especially if the threat triangle isn't complete. Not sure how they got so close to the ship with the normal security measures in place, but it happened and it was only paint. However, this is exactly why you secure the jetty prior to a ship coming alongside using CAF and local authorities. De-escalate as best as possible and then use non-lethal force such as your fire hoses rigged on the upper decks.......trust me, they will stop someone

.....ask ST....lol.''

Some context from a more friendly Greek:

''Alright... As a Greek-Canadian (served both in the Greek and Canadian army) I would like to apologize. Those guys are fuckin morons and stupid as fuck!
In 1932 Russia would give huge amounts of money(in other words fund) KKE(those fucking cunts who thru the paint), So one day they would "rule" Greece. The Greek army didn't let that happen and thru a lot of them in the jail.. So since then they can't stand the sight of any military uniform. Whenever they see anything that has to do with military they throw paint cans.
Sorry for my bad English!''

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

If the ship's security is going to step one boot onto the jetty, there had better be a SOFA that allows the use of force or Canadian sailors may find themselves in the local prison. The ship is sovereign. The jetty is local.

This is correct.

There would be no confrontation on the jetty; however, the Ship Staff would be within their rights to engage from the Ship if they were targeted from the Jetty.

If someone crossed the Brow, we can detain them on the spot.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Ok, so a crowd of people has a few of them sprayed down, and the paint still gets on the ship. Cool beans?

Or, the next time it'll still be petty vandalism because that's by far the most likely scenario when visiting a NATO port. Regardless, reacting with violence in the face of a protest does not ever look good for us. Explaining away at your court martial how you were paranoid and assumed that the paint can was a bomb, despite it looking nothing like a bomb and there being no real indication that was the case is not going to go well for you.

Sounds like someone is scared to make the wrong call so they think it's better to make no call.

 

[stoker dave]

This has been a really useful discussion. Anecdote and some thread drift.

I was OOD on 'active service' in the Middle East. The ship's duty watch was about 120 individuals including armed soldiers.

As OOD, someone notified me that divers were going into the water about 100 m from the ship. I ran to take a look - yup, that is what was going on. One of the soldiers asked if he should shoot them as he was worried the divers might try to place a bomb on the ship. A reasonable concern given the conditions. I told him to hang on for a minute. I called the local harbour master and asked if they knew about the divers. Yes, they said, there is some repair work being done, all was authorized and apologized for not notifying the ship. All worked out ok, but it might not have.

I think I might have been 27 years old at the time and probably over my head in what I was being asked to do. Certainly some training and awareness in this area is justified.

 

[dimsum]

Explaining away at your court martial how you were paranoid and assumed that the paint can was a bomb, despite it looking nothing like a bomb and there being no real indication that was the case is not going to go well for you.

What does a bomb look like these days? Afghanistan is known for IEDs, which also look nothing like what we'd expect as a bomb.

Hell, in airports there are warnings about not leaving your bags unattended, or else they could be destroyed.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Here is another headline for you .
Canadian warship burning dozens feared dead many more injured or missing!
Fuck court martials,
1st line of defence fire hoses pepper spray , 2nd line batons and shields, non lethal weapons, 3d line lethal force.
And for the record no, I don't give a fuck about dead Greek communists or live ones either. I do give a fuck about Canadian service personnel.
If you think that makes me a cold son of a bitch....I can live with that.

 

[GK .Dundas]

This has been a really useful discussion. Anecdote and some thread drift.

I was OOD on 'active service' in the Middle East. The ship's duty watch was about 120 individuals including armed soldiers.

As OOD, someone notified me that divers were going into the water about 100 m from the ship. I ran to take a look - yup, that is what was going on. One of the soldiers asked if he should shoot them as he was worried the divers might try to place a bomb on the ship. A reasonable concern given the conditions. I told him to hang on for a minute. I called the local harbour master and asked if they knew about the divers. Yes, they said, there is some repair work being done, all was authorized and apologized for not notifying the ship. All worked out ok, but it might not have.

I think I might have been 27 years old at the time and probably over my head in what I was being asked to do. Certainly some training and awareness in this area is justified.

You did fine ,you did what training and common sense told you to do.
Mind you I 'll bet your stomach was tight and knotting slightly while this was happening.

 

[btrudy]

And for the record no, I don't give a fuck about dead Greek communists or live ones either. I do give a fuck about Canadian service personnel.
If you think that makes me a cold son of a bitch....I can live with that.

Yes, I do think that makes you a bad person. Or at the very least one whose moral compass is not aligned with the CAF Ethos.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Yes, I do think that makes you a bad person. Or at the very least one whose moral compass is not aligned with the CAF Ethos.

Ah context is everything I notice that you didn't quote the the earlier part.
My duty as a Canadian soldier was explained to me as close with and kill the enemy I suppose that's against the CAF ethos now.
You're right of course it's only paint and and you don't shoot people for that. But what if hadn't been paint .Thermite and gasoline and frag grenades could have caused a terrible disaster.

 

[Czech_pivo]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1505298830379601926

NST had provided security the last time an HMC ship was in that port. Apparently no measures in place this time around.

Facebook comment from a former NST NCO:

''Lots of silly comments from people who think they know all about Force Protection. First, when we stood up NST in the exact same port we had two check points and a guarded gate with spike strips and Greek police manning those gates. Second, you would never open fire on people especially if the threat triangle isn't complete. Not sure how they got so close to the ship with the normal security measures in place, but it happened and it was only paint. However, this is exactly why you secure the jetty prior to a ship coming alongside using CAF and local authorities. De-escalate as best as possible and then use non-lethal force such as your fire hoses rigged on the upper decks.......trust me, they will stop someone

.....ask ST....lol.''

Some context from a more friendly Greek:

''Alright... As a Greek-Canadian (served both in the Greek and Canadian army) I would like to apologize. Those guys are fuckin morons and stupid as fuck!
In 1932 Russia would give huge amounts of money(in other words fund) KKE(those fucking cunts who thru the paint), So one day they would "rule" Greece. The Greek army didn't let that happen and thru a lot of them in the jail.. So since then they can't stand the sight of any military uniform. Whenever they see anything that has to do with military they throw paint cans.
Sorry for my bad English!''

Good thing is was only paint and not Molotov's.

Question, would an individual lighting a Molotov, instead of opening the lid of a paint can, meet the requirements for lethal force protection?

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Yes, I do think that makes you a bad person. Or at the very least one whose moral compass is not aligned with the CAF Ethos.

You realize reactions to a FP event are codified in SSOs. There is a set of reactions you are supposed to take when something like this happens.

The Ship didn't do that, that's a problem.

You've also continued to ignore everything that's been said in this thread that elaborated on the issue.

Now you're just being willfully ignorant. It has me questioning whether you actually have any experience in these matters.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Good thing is was only paint and not Molotov's.

Question, would an individual lighting a Molotov, instead of opening the lid of a paint can, meet the requirements for lethal force protection?

Your first tool is your voice.

UoF situations are all circumstantial and will depend on ROE + three things:

Proximity, capability and intent. All three of those things must be satisfied before lethal force can be considered.

Every CAF member has the inherent right to self-defence. This must be proportionate and satisfy the above.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Your first tool is your voice.

UoF situations are all circumstantial and will depend on ROE + three things:

Proximity, capability and intent. All three of those things must be satisfied before lethal force can be considered.

Every CAF member has the inherent right to self-defence. This must be proportionate and satisfy the above.

1) Intent - check, lighting Molotov
2) Capability - Yes, I believe they have the ability to light said Molotov and throw it the distance needed to hit my ship
3) Proximity - Yes, I believe the thrown Molotov will hit my ship

So, if paint was changed to be lit Molotov, then lethal force would have been justified.

 

[daftandbarmy]

1) Intent - check, lighting Molotov
2) Capability - Yes, I believe they have the ability to light said Molotov and throw it the distance needed to hit my ship
3) Proximity - Yes, I believe the thrown Molotov will hit my ship

So, if paint was changed to be lit Molotov, then lethal force would have been justified.

Incorrect. No Judge will give you a pass for shooting someone throwing a petrol bomb. You, the trigger puller that is, will likely be tried for murder.

A good example of why these kinds of things need to be rehearsed

 

[btrudy]

Ah context is everything I notice that you didn't quote the the earlier part.
My duty as a Canadian soldier was explained to me as close with and kill the enemy I suppose that's against the CAF ethos now.
You're right of course it's only paint and and you don't shoot people for that. But what if hadn't been paint .Thermite and gasoline and frag grenades could have caused a terrible disaster.

Uhh yeah, you're supposed to kill the enemy. You're not supposed to kill peaceful protesters in an allied nation.

Paranoid "what if" scenarios without any reasonable justification aren't sufficient reason to murder someone.

 

[Czech_pivo]

Incorrect. No Judge will give you a pass for shooting someone throwing a petrol bomb. You, the trigger puller that is, will likely be tried for murder.

A good example of why these kinds of things need to be rehearsed

I appreciate you explaining that. I would have thought that an individual throwing a lit Molotov onto a ship would warrant the use of lethal force against that individual.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Uhh yeah, you're supposed to kill the enemy. You're not supposed to kill peaceful protesters in an allied nation.

Paranoid "what if" scenarios without any reasonable justification aren't sufficient reason to murder someone.

USS Cole .

 

[btrudy]

USS Cole .

The USS Cole... was a completely different scenario in a completely different context. You appear to be willfully ignoring the notion that we actually need to assess the threat of the scenario we find ourselves in, and not blindly react to every possible scenario based upon whatever imagined worst case scenario your could come up with in your head.

The fact that there exists some scenarios where use of lethal force is appropriate is not in any way shape or form an excuse to escalate to lethal force (or even any force) in all scenarios. Your use of force needs to be appropriate based upon the situation that is actually unfolding. Using violence to prevent petty vandalism is not appropriate.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I appreciate you explaining that. I would have thought that an individual throwing a lit Molotov onto a ship would warrant the use of lethal force against that individual.

I know, right?

Sounds crazy but, when you actually have a chance to get hit with a few, you realize pretty quickly that they're not all that lethal unless you really screw up.

Which is why the 'good guys' need to be able to demonstrate a proportionate use of force. A plastic bullet to the upper chest, for example, was a pretty good trade for a petrol bomb as I recall

Which reminds me of an awkward (for me) conversation I once had with a Navy 2 1/2 ringer, during a mess function, around the time of the USS Cole incident. The discussion focused on 'what would you do if' type stuff in situations short of General War.

As I recall, one of the questions we threw out there was something like 'What would you do if you were alongside and a bunch of rioters turned up?'.

His - a little too confident - response was along the lines of 'I'd crank that main gun of ours around and introduce them to the wonders of naval gunfire', or words to that effect.

Me and another (Army) guy just kind of stared at him for a bit wondering when he was going to blurt out 'Gotcha!', or some similar. But it was pretty clear that he was serious.

 

[OldSolduer]

Yes, I do think that makes you a bad person. Or at the very least one whose moral compass is not aligned with the CAF Ethos.

Please enlighten us on your knowledge of CF ethos.

I’m curious

 

[btrudy]

As I recall, one of the questions we threw out there was something like 'What would you do if you were alongside and a bunch of rioters turned up?'.

His - a little too confident - response was along the lines of 'I'd crank that main gun of ours around and introduce them to the wonders of naval gunfire', or words to that effect.

Setting the disgusting propensity to murder aside, this is also showing an appalling lack of understanding of how his own weapon systems work.