Rick's Napkin Forces Challenge

OldSolduer · 29 Dec 2021

I'd like to say one thing - it will probably turn out to be more - but can we put back the "light" in infantry?

Kirkhill · 29 Dec 2021

daftandbarmy said:
Since we're on the subject of SMGs....

The U.S. Army Selects New Submachine Gun
The Swiss-made Brugger and Thomet APC9K is the Army’s first official subgun since World War II.

The U.S. Army has officially selected the Brugger and Thomet APC9K to outfit its Personal Security Details.

The APC9K is the first new submachine gun for the U.S. Army since the M3 “Greasegun” of World War II. The service will buy 350 of the compact automatic weapons for $2.5 million, with an option to buy 1,000 more. The B&T APC9K beat out guns from more than ten other companies, including Colt and Heckler and Koch, as well as guns based on the M-16 and MP-5 weapons platforms.

The APC9K is an entirely new submachine gun developed in conjunction with and for EKO Cobra, Austria’s counterterrorism unit. The gun uses a closed-bolt blowback system, has a maximum rate of fire of 1,080 rounds per minute, and weighs just 5.9 pounds with 30-round magazine, foregrip, and Aimpoint micro red dot aiming sight. It’s chambered in 9-millimeter Parabellum and comes standard with two 30-round translucent magazines.

The U.S. Army Just Chose Its First New Submachine Gun Since WWII

The Swiss-made Brugger and Thomet APC9K is the Army’s first official subgun since World War II.

www.popularmechanics.com

1080 rounds per minute
18 rounds per second
30 rounds per magazine
1.666 seconds per magazine

120 paces per minute
2 paces per second

Left-Right-Left...Change Mags!

Kirkhill · 29 Dec 2021

FormerHorseGuard said:
I would not change anything, because it would be a waste of time, unless this new party came in with a very strong mandate and could hold power for at least 2 full terms, nothing would happen.

First term would 2 of the 5 years to write the white paper, the next 2 years would eat up the time to put into action with funding, golden parachutes for those who want to leave before the big changes comes on the civilian side of the table. At the same time there would be the great influx of retirements of soldiers who no longer had commands or jobs, after reading the white paper. It would take 1 to 3 years to close any unneeded bases ( Toronto was a base on the Friday but slated for closure the next week, took 3 years to close it, only to keep part of it open).

Then a general election is called, other parties would bring the record of bases closing, troops being down sized and how this is bad for Canada and how it is bad for the tax payer. If the party won the election and could continue the plan to down size and de militarize the army, then the actual plan would start coming in and by the time the plan was at phase 1 , there would be another election and new government because it is the new reality our governments do not go much beyond 2 terms.

Then the new government plans comes into being and re do the whole show over

This is the part that is missing in Ottawa - that and the willingness of all committee members to go against their own party leaders.

https://committees.parliament.uk/committee/24/defence-committee/membership/

Defence Committee

Commons Select Committee

The Defence Committee is appointed by the House of Commons to examine the expenditure, administration, and policy of the Ministry of Defence and its associated public bodies.

11 current committee members

KevinB · 29 Dec 2021

Kirkhill said:
1080 rounds per minute
18 rounds per second
30 rounds per magazine
1.666 seconds per magazine

120 paces per minute
2 paces per second

Left-Right-Left...Change Mags!

The entire program was rife with stupidity. The M4A1 was "too long" (read not cool enough) - and they refused to look at the 10.3" Mk18 upper that SOCOM uses - as it was still too long, nor would they accept the addition of the Law Tactical Folder (which has NSN 1005-01-672-4614) which SOCOM and the US Army already uses on M4, M18, and M110's.

In short some idiot wanted a 9mm Sub gun to look cool for pictures with zero thought to the actual operational requirements of a weapon system.

OldSolduer · 29 Dec 2021

OldSolduer said:
I'd like to say one thing - it will probably turn out to be more - but can we put back the "light" in infantry?

I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.

FJAG · 29 Dec 2021

OldSolduer said:
I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.

I used to think I was hard done by when I had to strap a 25/77 set to my rucksack for the two or three kilometres I had to hike when dismounted from my M113. All my gear inclusive of the C1 I carried as a FOO (I carried the C1 in the belief that I wouldn't look like a FOO to the pretend Commies) must have come in at around fifty pounds tops.

I can't even imagine what it was like for the guys in the sandbox. A 100 lbs+ in 40 to 50 degrees C+

Kirkhill · 29 Dec 2021

Funny thing about those 77s. They must have been jet propelled.

I remember working in syndicates at Gagetown. The guy in the rear without the gear was always lagging back and falling off the interval. No amount of cajoling would make him keep up.

Next leg he turns into the syndicate leader. Now he gets the radio. All of a sudden he is legging it as if he is on a cross country race and nobody can keep up with him, despite the extra 15lbs on his back.

dimsum · 29 Dec 2021

KevinB said:
with zero thought to the actual operational requirements of a weapon system.

In procurement? Why gee golly, I'll be damned...

KevinB · 29 Dec 2021

OldSolduer said:
I'd like to say one thing - it will probably turn out to be more - but can we put back the "light" in infantry?

OldSolduer said:
I warned you didn't I?
I have said this before BUT I want to reiterate it. Every time a replacement ruck/web gear or what ever was issued some brain thought that meant "the soldiers can carry more equipment" with zero thought given to the weight and its displacement.

FJAG said:
I used to think I was hard done by when I had to strap a 25/77 set to my rucksack for the two or three kilometres I had to hike when dismounted from my M113. All my gear inclusive of the C1 I carried as a FOO (I carried the C1 in the belief that I wouldn't look like a FOO to the pretend Commies) must have come in at around fifty pounds tops.

I can't even imagine what it was like for the guys in the sandbox. A 100 lbs+ in 40 to 50 degrees C+

I had posted the US Army load carriage study here several years ago - there was also an informal one done by 1 and 3 VP to solider load @MJP and some others will probably remember.

The take away was Light Infantry meant you carry a heavy load and become combat ineffective. For those who where on course shortly after the Bravo Two Zero was released - the BS number put out by "Andy McNab" Steve Mitchell on both the weight of their packs and the distance they traveled with them inspired a lot of CF NCO's and Officers (at least in the PPCLI) to see how much weight would physically crush a soldier.
**News flash a '64 pattern jump ruck can indeed be loaded well over 180lbs, I say that from personal experience.

The "Iron Man" suit and several autonomous Mule vehicles and drone supply systems came about from the early loads dismounted forces where carrying early in Afghanistan and Iraq. About the same time we also seemed to have learned that troops can be rotated even from SR missions, and endurance on the same can be extended via Helo resupply (and GPS Parachute delivery) rather than making folks carry insane amount of gear.

OldSolduer · 29 Dec 2021

KevinB said:
The take away was Light Infantry meant you carry a heavy load and become combat ineffective. For those who where on course shortly after the Bravo Two Zero was released - the BS number put out by "Andy McNab" Steve Mitchell on both the weight of their packs and the distance they traveled with them inspired a lot of CF NCO's and Officers (at least in the PPCLI) to see how much weight would physically crush a soldier.
**News flash a '64 pattern jump ruck can indeed be loaded well over 180lbs, I say that from personal experience.

The "Iron Man" suit and several autonomous Mule vehicles and drone supply systems came about from the early loads dismounted forces where carrying early in Afghanistan and Iraq. About the same time we also seemed to have learned that troops can be rotated even from SR missions, and endurance on the same can be extended via Helo resupply (and GPS Parachute delivery) rather than making folks carry insane amount of gear.

Yes - I can attest to the idea that there were fools who thought that making a soldier carry a 120 pound ruck was the way to go. All it did was injure backs, knees, ankles, ligaments, tendons etc .

RangerRay · 29 Dec 2021

OldSolduer said:
Yes - I can attest to the idea that there were fools who thought that making a soldier carry a 120 pound ruck was the way to go. All it did was injure backs, knees, ankles, ligaments, tendons etc .

A great way to force lots of good soldiers out of the army before they even go on operations.

OldSolduer · 29 Dec 2021

RangerRay said:
A great way to force lots of good soldiers out of the army before they even go on operations.

Don't forget PER points for being a ~~brainless fool~~ hard charger.

KevinB · 30 Dec 2021

RangerRay said:
A great way to force lots of good soldiers out of the army before they even go on operations.

Soldier Load Carriage, Injuries, Rehabilitation and Physical Conditioning: An International Approach

Soldiers are often required to carry heavy loads that can exceed 45 kg. The physiological costs and biomechanical responses to these loads, whilst varying with the contexts in which they are carried, have led to soldier injuries. These injuries can range ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

The Soldier’s Heavy Load

www.cnas.org

daftandbarmy · 3 Jan 2022

Kirkhill said:
Funny thing about those 77s. They must have been jet propelled.

I remember working in syndicates at Gagetown. The guy in the rear without the gear was always lagging back and falling off the interval. No amount of cajoling would make him keep up.

Next leg he turns into the syndicate leader. Now he gets the radio. All of a sudden he is legging it as if he is on a cross country race and nobody can keep up with him, despite the extra 15lbs on his back.

Day trip: 95lbs

3 day trip: 130lbs

On airborne exercises we had to weigh our gear as part of the loading plan. I recall that my Pl Signaler weighed 145lbs, and 'jumped and humped' with 110lbs of weapons, radio, batteries etc. I got away with a measly 80-90lbs. We regularly covered about 20 miles per day, in the mountains. On Ops we carried similar loads.

FJAG · 3 Jan 2022

A blast from the past - FM 21-18 Foot Marches 1 June 1990:

2-7. INDIVIDUAL LOAD
To prevent an individual load from hindering a marching soldier’s mobility and combat readiness, commanders must reduce the carried load to the minimum mission-essential and survival equipment.
a. The individual’s combat load is that mission-essential equipment as determined by the commander, which is required for the soldier to fight and survive immediate combat operations. The load can be divided into an approach march load and fighting load. The fighting load should not exceed 48 pounds, and the approach march load (which includes the fighting load) should be less than 72 pounds, based upon individual abilities.

Kirkhill · 24 Apr 2022

Resurrection. After all it is Easter.

Rethought after today's discussions.

Expeditionary Army

	CANSOFCOM
	427 SOAS
	CFJIRU
	JTF 2
	CSOR
	1 RCR (SOC)

	1 Cdn Div
	HQ & Sigs Regt

1 CMBG	2 CMBG (CCSB)	5e GBMC
HQ & Sigs Sqn	HQ & Sigs Sqn	HQ & Sigs Sqn
Service Gp	Service Gp	Service Gp
408 TacHel	450 TacHel	430 TacHel

1 RCHA	2 RCHA (AD)	5e RLAC
LdSH(RC)	4 RCA (GS)	12e RBC
1 PPCLI	RCD	1 R22eR
2 PPCLI	21 EWR	2 R22eR
2 RCR		3 RCR

RCR goes all in for the Light/SOC roles and gets a prestige appointment in CANSOFCOM

After that, everybody sorts it out for themselves.

Domestic Air Force

CANR

1 Cdn Air Div

4 Ftr Wing

19 ISR Wing

3 Ftr Wing

8Tpt Wing

JTF(N)

4 GBD Sqns

440 Sqn

Cdn Rangers

1 CRPG

2 CRPG

3 CRPG

4 CRPG

5 CRPG

JRCC Victoria

JRCC Trenton

JRCC Halifax

JTF(Pac)

JTF(W)

JTF(C)

JTF(E)

JTF(Atl)

3 GBD Sqns

435 Sqn

417 Sqn

424 Sqn

439 Sqn

413 Sqn

442 Sqn

444/130 Sqn

TDG 01

TDG 02

TDG 03

TDG 04

TDG 05

TDG 06

TDG 07

TDG 08

TDG 09

HQ

Comms

Svc

Eng

5 Fd RCA

20 Ind RCA

116 Ind RCA

56 Fd RCA

7 Fd RCA

30 Fd RCA

2 Fd RCA

62 Fd RCA

1 Fd RCA

15 Fd RCA

20 Fd RCA

10 Fd RCA

11 Fd RCA

49 Fd RCA

42 Fd RCA

RCH

6 Fd RCA

3 Fd RCA

BCD

SALH

26 Fd RCA

1H

QYR

OntR

RdHull

SherH

8 CH

BCR

KOCR

FGH

WindsorR

GGHG

GGFG

CGG

12RBC(M)

PEIR

CanScot

CalgH

SaskD

E&Kscot

RHFofC

CHofO

RMtlR

Voltigeurs

Hfx Rfls

SHofC

LER

RRR

4 RCR

QORofC

SD&GH

RHRofC

RChaud

PLFus

RWmR

RWpgR

Elgins

RRofC

BrockR

FusMR

RSag

WNSR

RMtnR

QOCHofC

G&SFor

TorScot

PWOR

RMais

FusSher

CBH

LSSR

RHLI

LorneScot

AlgR

4 R22R

6 R22R

RNBR

A&SHofC

H&PER

IrRofC

NorthShore

L&WR

RNfldR

The Hierarchy would stay the same.
The span of interests of the HQs would increase
Militia Regiments would primarily supply Infantry Coys for Territorial Defence.
They would also supply a Troop/Platoon for augmentation of the Expeditionary Army.

GBD Sqn is a Ground Based Defence Squadron - to be equipped with SAMs, ABMs, Coastal Defence Missiles, RPAS and potentially LCAAT aircraft launched from fixed points. There are 19 of them in total, reinstating the old Radar Squadrons and supplying each of the southern Joint Task Forces with 3 Squadrons and JTF(N) with 4 Squadrons.

JTF(N) also takes command of all the CRPGs regardless of which territory or province they are located in.

Kirkhill · 11 Sep 2022

Bump.

In light of recent activities

Doubling down on Lightness and improving Intelligence. Centralizing Command

CJOC retains command over JTFs North, Pacific, Western, Central, Eastern and Atlantic but also commands 1 Cdn Div.

1 Div owns

1 Wing, 6 CSB, 1, 2 and 5 Brigades.

Canadian Army owns

2, 3, 4, and 5 Divs and the Canadian Rangers.

1 Div focuses on Kinetic Ops in Canada and Overseas.

The Canadian Army, via CADTC focuses on training and organizing the Rangers, Reserves and Recruits as well as career training and progression.

CJOC

JTF-N

JTF-P

JTF-W

JTF-C

JTF-E

JTF-A

1 Div

1 Wing

400 Sqn

403 Sqn

408 Sqn

438 Sqn

430 Sqn

CH-146

450 Sqn

CH-147

6 CSB

HQ

CAIR

6 Int Coy

2 Int Coy

7 Int Coy

4 Int Coy

3 Int Coy

IATF

21 EWR

4 ADR

4 ESR

1 (Siege) Bde

HQ &Sigs Sqn

1 Svc Bn

1 CER

1 RCHA

LdSH(RC)

1 PPCLI

2 PPCLI

3 PPCLI

2 (Light) Bde

5 (Light) Bde

HQ &Sigs Sqn

2 Svc Bn

5 Svc Bn

2 CER

5 CER

2 RCHA

5 RALC

RCD

12e RBC

1 RCR

2 RCR

1 R22eR

2 R22eR

3 RCR

3 R22eR

3 Div

4 Div

2 Div

5 Div

3 DSG

4 DSG

2 DSG

5 DSG

3 DTC

4 DTC

2 DTC

5 DTC

ARCG

39 (Garrison) Bde

41 (Garrison) Bde

38 (Garrison) Bde

31 (Garrison) Bde

32 (Garrison) Bde

33 (Garrison) Bde

34 (Garrison) Bde

35 (Garrison) Bde

36 (Garrison) Bde

37 (Garrison) Bde

Bde HQ

Sigs Rgt

Svc Bn

Tpt Bn

Engr Rgt

RRCA

RCAC

RCIC

4 CRPG

3 CRPG

1 CRPG

2 CRPG

5 CRPG

Propose that 6 CSB continue with overall command or Int assets but that Int assets include active gathering capabilities including Electronic Surveillance and its own fleet of Drones (See Ukrainian Kraken Regiment for Reference - ) and that it be closely aligned with the IATF group. These are valuable but Soft capabilities.

Propose that 4 RCA (GS) Regiment revert to 4 RCA (AD) Regiment - focusing on MRAD and closely aligning with 21 EW Regiment to keep the skies clear.

Propose that 1 Brigade be the designated Heavy Brigade (or as I am now inclined to think of it - The Siege Train - valuable, necessary even, when breaking fortifications, but ponderous) - Track based.

Propose that 2 and 5 Brigades be designated Light Brigades - Wheel and Helo based.

1 would be a heavily armoured organization (LAV 6s for now but HAPCs in the future)
1 RCHA would be an SPG regiment with a 12 tube HIMARS battery and a SHORAD troop.
Infantry liberally armed with ATGMs.

2 and 5 would be lightly armoured organizations with an ISTAR Regiment, a pair of LAV Battalions and a Heliborne Battalion. Ranging wide and fast in small groups.
2 RCHA and 5 RALC would be M777 Regiments with a 4 Tube HIMAR Troop and a SHORAD Battery.
Manpads liberally issued along with ATGMs.

Reserve Forces light troops independent of transport. Reserve Brigades to include a Transport Battalion in addition to the Service Battalion. Transport Battalions equipped with an array of vehicles to suit different environments, to include an armoured transport capability.

Reserve Artillery heavily focused on Missiles for both Air Defence and General Support.

Reserve Cavalry as light cavalry mounted on light wheeled vehicles with light tracked vehicles in storage with the Transport Battalion.

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