CPGear MoFOCR or TT MAV/MFR?

[Duke878]

Okay Im on work up trg to go to the big sandbox and currently the CF is trialling the TT MAV system. They've issued a bunch of them, but as per usual I (an a bunch of other ppl) got the short end of the stick and are pretty much left to fend for ourselves.  The two rigs ive narrowed it down to is the TT MAV and the CPGear MoFOCR.

A senior member of my unit has used the MoFOCR when he went over and swears by it.  If he went again, he'd use it again.

On the flip side, the MAV is being trialed and could possibly be (33.3333% chance) the next replacement for the Tac Vest (not soon enough!) so it would make sense to get that. 

Cost for both these rigs are compairable, so price isnt an issue.

Lemme know your input if you've used any of these rigs and what you do and dont like about them.

ALSO, if anyone knows the Rigs that the Vandoo Battle group has trialed and the 3rd trial system, please let me know.

Many thanks!

 

[Duke878]

ttt!

 

[MJP]

There is no need to bump your topic as there is little traffic in gear review.

I have a bit of experience with the TT Mav.  I used 2 piece with the X harness as I found it easier to get on than the one piece.  It provides more than enough space to carry all your gear and you really have to work hard at overburdening yourself with useless pouches and kit.  It like most things Molle has an unlimited number of configurations and is easy to adapt if your role changes overseas.

 

[brihard]

I used the MoFOCR on tour and loved it. Lots of MOLLE real estate (a challenge with the MAV), easily access and big pockets for maps, papers, etc etc. Very rugged as far as I found, and a few very nice touches like the sleeves in the shoulders for radio wires or hydration tubes. I was impressed enough with the rig that I've also picked up a CADPAT TW one for training back here in Canada.

 

[RCR Grunt]

I'd go with the TT 2 piece MAV with an x-harness and center adapter or the following reasons:

1)  You'll stay under the RSM's radar, which will also keep you under the TF RSM's radar.

2)  The 2 piece MAV is easy to don and doff and it gives you adequate MOLLE/PALS real estate.  The MoFOCR uses "dragon snap" or whatever buckles to close the vest.  Personally, I find them a PITA to do up and are insecure once you do get them closed.  A vest with a plethora of real estate can easily lead to inexperienced soldiers overloading due to the tendency to ill every gap with a pouch.  The MAV has just the right amount.

3)  If the CF does decide to go with the MAV as a replacement, you can walk into clothing and exchange your worn out MAV with a shiny new one.  The MoFOCR isn't even on the procurement systems radar.

 

[brihard]

I'd go with the TT 2 piece MAV with an x-harness and center adapter or the following reasons:

1)  You'll stay under the RSM's radar, which will also keep you under the TF RSM's radar.

2)  The 2 piece MAV is easy to don and doff and it gives you adequate MOLLE/PALS real estate.  The MoFOCR uses "dragon snap" or whatever buckles to close the vest.  Personally, I find them a PITA to do up and are insecure once you do get them closed.  A vest with a plethora of real estate can easily lead to inexperienced soldiers overloading due to the tendency to ill every gap with a pouch.  The MAV has just the right amount.

3)  If the CF does decide to go with the MAV as a replacement, you can walk into clothing and exchange your worn out MAV with a shiny new one.  The MoFOCR isn't even on the procurement systems radar.

Some fair points, though I disagree on the snapdragon- while annoying initially, you quickly figure out how to work them easily, and I've never had one come undone on me when I didn't want it to.

The current CF program, so far as I understand, is not to use one of the three to replace the TV with, but to capture lessons learned from three different rigs and then to hold a competition for a new design.

Regarding vest real estate- I'm not going to assume the OP doesn't know what he's doing in terms of what he needs to carry. My MoFOCR certainly was not absolutely covered; it's nice to have the room and not need it than to need it and not have it, plus the 'full vest' nature of the MoFOCR, besides just giving you more Molle, makes the internal admin pockets substantially larger, which means things can be folded less and sit more flat.

Returning his personally bought MAV to clothing stores in order to get a shiny new one would be fraud. I would not be counselling that.

 

[CombatDoc]

I'd go with the TT 2 piece MAV with an x-harness and center adapter or the following reasons:...

2)  The 2 piece MAV is easy to don and doff and it gives you adequate MOLLE/PALS real estate.  The MoFOCR uses "dragon snap" or whatever buckles to close the vest.  Personally, I find them a PITA to do up and are insecure once you do get them closed...

I am using the TT 2 piece MAV with x-harness, but no centre adapter.  I also find it easy to doff and don with adequate real estate.  When I first started using it I had it adjusted too low on the body, which was uncomfortable when seated in vehicles.  However, raising the rig higher on the chest and making sure that it is snugged tight against the frag vest did the trick.  The one thing that I wish it had was Molle over the chest region, allowing one to attach a pistol holster.

I too have some experience with the Snapdragon closures, since I added some CP Gear 3/2 ammo pouches to my rig (the beauty of Molle!).  Although the concept is great (fast opening with just a pull of the tab when under pressure), I find them finicky to use in practice. They can be difficult to snap shut, and in my experience they don't always release properly when trying to open the pouch.  Furthermore, I've broken one just trying to open it by the pull strap.

 

[MJP]

I forgot to add above that  haven't played around with the MoFOCR so I can't say anything good or bad about it, but knowing the dude that designed it I am quite sure it is a good piece of kit as well.  I just don't have any experience with it so I leave to the ones that do.

I am using the TT 2 piece MAV with x-harness, but no centre adapter.  I also find it easy to doff and don with adequate real estate.  When I first started using it I had it adjusted too low on the body, which was uncomfortable when seated in vehicles.  However, raising the rig higher on the chest and making sure that it is snugged tight against the frag vest did the trick.  The one thing that I wish it had was Molle over the chest region, allowing one to attach a pistol holster.

That is the beauty of the MAV easy to adjust to different roles and body types.

  The one thing that I wish it had was Molle over the chest region, allowing one to attach a pistol holster.

Not to derail the whole topic but why would you want your pistol on your chest?  It makes it that much harder to transition to if you had too and if for whatever reason you had to ditch your rig (like trapped in an AFV for example) you would lose your pistol as well.  Just so you don't think I am picking on ya' I too use to carry my pistol in one of my mag pouches of my tacvest till I was shown how illogical it was considering the whole premise of carrying a pistol(not to mention how "unergonomic" the TV itself was).



Edit for clarity

 

[CombatDoc]

Not to derail the whole topic but why would you want your pistol on your chest?  It makes it that much harder to transition to if you had too and if for whatever reason you had to ditch your rig (like trapped in an AFV for example) you would lose your pistol as well.  Just so you don't think I am picking on ya' I too use to carry my pistol in one of my mag pouches of my tacvest till I was shown how illogical it was considering the whole premise of carrying a pistol(not to mention how "unergonomic" the TV itself was).



Edit for clarity

If CombatDoc needs to transition to pistol from his C7, he'll have bigger issues than whether the pistol is on his chest or his leg rig.  Also, if I have to ditch my rig because I'm trapped in AFV, going to pistol is probably going to be the last thing on my mind.  I own multiple belt and leg rigs,  but I'm not sure I agree with you that it's illogical to carry a pistol on the chest (although I completely agree that the issue TV is unergonomic, hence the reason for the TT).  Since it's considered a "last-ditch" weapon, I'd be interested to know if there has been any combat use of the pistol in the 'Stan to engage the bad guys.

 

[Steve1987]

Hi,

I have owned both the TT 2 piece MAV with x-harness and MoFOCR in CADPAT TW.  Take this review for what it is, I have not been to Afghanistan so cannot comment on performance over there.  And I don't have really extensive experience with either one them.  But I will offer some points I've noticed about them.

Real estate:  As Brihard mentions, the MoFOCR offers significantly more real estate, and two large zippered admin style compartments.  For those who need to carry large amounts of maps, paper items, pens, or anything relatively flat the MoFOCR offers the required space, with fast zippered access.  The MAV offers two smaller admin pockets, with velcro closure.  They are not as big or as fast to access, but can still hold folded maps, a pen and paper, ect. and maybe some smaller items.  The MoFOCR admin pockets can easily hold gloves, flashlights, ect. that the MAV cannot.  For MOLLE, the the MoFOCR has 20 channels of MOLLE on the bottom 3 rows, the MAV with center adapter also offers 20 channels on the bottom 3.  The MoFOCR has additional MOLLE on the chest that the MAV does not.  The MAV with center adaptor makes better use of the front of the vest, there is not waisted space, and the last 2 channels of molle on the MoFOCR are further back and more likely to interfere with a pack.

Fit:  The MAV fit me a lot better.  I'm 6' 2'' and 200 pounds.  I could not get the MoFOCR to fit properly over the current CF body armor, it was always loose under the armpits, something to do with the harness I think, I tried adjusting it over and over and could not get a tight fit.  Has anyone else had this problem?  the MAV with x-harness fits awesome, and there is no floppyness like the MoFOCR, I'll let the pics speak for fit of the MAV. 

Snapdragons:  I know there are some such as Brihard who have used these buckles on deployment and love them.  That being said, they weren't for me. I would suggest at least giving them a try before purchasing, you might like them...or might not. I still have the 3/2 mag pouches from my MoFOCR and removed the snapdragons, using an industrial sewing machine I replaced them with regular milspec buckles.  I also took the opportunity to re-enforce the sewing in the CP pouches.  I've noticed CP Gear stitching although not bad is not up to the same standards as the high end American companies like blue force gear, TT, or HSGI.  This is based on my knowledge/experience with stitching, that being said nothing has fallen apart yet, and the CADPAT keeps things more under the radar.

Don/Doffing: The MAV is faster to put on, with only two buckles.  I found the MoFOCR is awkward to put on, I think probably because of my dislike of the snapdragons and the poor fit I had with mine.  That being said, the MoFOCR is faster to take off if you are using the center adaptor on the MAV. I believe it was the snapdragons and D rings on the harness that prevented the MoFOCR from being a competitor for future CF procurement when they were tested by the military. 

Attached for reference is my TT MAV with a mix of stuff, including the modified CP Gear mag pouches from my MoFOCR.  Since this vest is modular, of course I can switch things up whenever I want to add more mags/whatever.  These photos should give some idea of the capacity of MAV:

Unfortunately I sold the MoFOCR so cannot provide a similar set of photos at the moment.

I would suggest if you go with one of the MoFOCR packages from CP Gear, switch the IFAK for something else.  The CP Gear IFAK hangs really awkwardly, it's just not well designed, and not removable.  There are much better options out there. CTOMS, Blue Force Gear, ATS, ect. all offer excellent IFAK kits, I would really suggest spending the extra $$ on one of those, since you probably don't want to cheap out on something that important, espiacelly if you're playing for real.

Anyway, that's my 2 cents and experience with the two rigs, hopefully it's helpful.
-Steve

 

[Duke878]

Thanks Steve for the very detailed review! Also this pics really help!

Since were on the topic (kinda), what are the pros and cons using the Shingle-type mag pouches vs the Flap over mag pouches. Im looking at pouches that hold 3, so im planning on having real estate for about 9-10 mags. 

I wont be buying anything atleast for afew months, As ill be holding out and seeing if they can issue it to me instead. AND even tho the reviews are pretty much 70% MAV and 30% MoFOCR, I havent really made up my mind yet.

 

[MikeL]

I like the mag shingles as it keeps a lower profile then the double/triple mag pouches making it easier to go prone(especially when you have plates), etc.
I got the shingles from Supply Captain for a good price.
http://supplycaptain.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_ID=134

With the AITES shingles you can have the flap over top of the mags, or tuck it in behind a loop inside the pouch or remove it(all velcro) I like this system a lot better then bungee. I tend to just have the flaps open and tucked in behind the loop/webbing inside the pouch.
Here's my set up with a mix of TT and CP Gear pouches, the mag shingles are AITES. The pic is when I first got it all, so ignore the loose straps as that is all taken care of now.
http://img810.imageshack.us/f/img0075z.jpg/

I thought the MAV had enough real estate for all the pouches I needed/wanted, but if you would like more theres a BIB you can buy from TT for the one piece MAV and CP Gear makes a 2 piece BIB for the 2 piece MAV. And as mentioned before theres also the TT centre adaptor.

IMO the MAV rides well over our armour and also on the body(when you aren't wearing armour).  I haven't had the MoFOCR so I can't compare, but I recommend the MAV.

Personally I like the CP Gear IFAK, I used it when I was on tour and it was able to hold everything I needed it too. As for not being removeable you are correct and that is a negative but I fixed that problem by mounting it onto a TT tear away panel. I've only used the CP Gear IFAK, so I can't really compare it to anything else.

 

[MJP]

Steve awesome write up dude....

If CombatDoc needs to transition to pistol from his C7, he'll have bigger issues than whether the pistol is on his chest or his leg rig.  Also, if I have to ditch my rig because I'm trapped in AFV, going to pistol is probably going to be the last thing on my mind.  I own multiple belt and leg rigs,  but I'm not sure I agree with you that it's illogical to carry a pistol on the chest (although I completely agree that the issue TV is unergonomic, hence the reason for the TT).  Since it's considered a "last-ditch" weapon, I'd be interested to know if there has been any combat use of the pistol in the 'Stan to engage the bad guys.

Meh probably haven't been a whole lot of pistol play if any (other than dudes shooting it for the sake of shooting something) but I would rather have it and never use it then lose it and need it.  Don't matter to me what ya do, soldiers better than me at the shooting game have ingrained functionality and ease of use in me.  I just try and pass it on.

 

[Steve1987]

Hi,

Glad the review was helpful; keep in mind though the pouches on mine probably don't provide an ideal layout, but can give you some idea of what you can fit on the MAV.  Afghanistan loadout will probably be much heavier and some of the guys here can probably provide you a list of what you'll probably be carrying, also over on lightfighter page 30 of "show your fighting loadout" there is some good info.

Skeletor: Glad to hear the CP Gear IFAK served you well overseas.  For a discrete non-issue IFAK on my issue tac vest it's not bad.  I have done something similar to you with mine.  I mounted it on one of the issued molle tear away panels, and then velcro'd that on the tac vest velcro, for added security I added a strap with buckle, this also solves the issue I have with it hanging to far off, and is easily removable:

The issues I have with it although can be solved, shouldn't need to be, and I think there are just better options.  Here is what I'm saying with how it kinda hangs far off:

You can see the molle strips aren't near the top, so it hangs off more than it should or a normal molle pouch normally does.  And there is no compression system for the pouch.  For a TCCC pouch, compared to the ones I've seen I think it's still too small, and too big/floppy to be an IFAK.  But I will let someone with more experience make that call, here are some photos of the CP Gear IFAK next to a Blue Force Gear "Trauma Now" fast access IFAK, you can also compare the quality of stitching, material, ect. yourself:

With contents, note how the BFG manages small items better.  Neither are ideal IFAK loadouts, this is just for pics, and probably both should have a tourniquet on the outside for fast access. The BFG pouch has molle on the top for a tourniquet, the CP Gear IFAK does not.  CP Gear does have some molle on the front, BFG does not.  CTOMS looks like another good option and I've heard nothing bad about them, unfortunately I don't have one here to compare.  If anyone is interested, I can provide pretty detailed pictures comparing stitching between CP Gear, Tactical Tailor, BFG, the issued stuff, and whatever other companies pouches I can find, I have a decent camera setup, should such details be of interest to anybody here?

I should mention I do have some experience with product design for another industry if that explains my interest in these things.
-Steve

 

[brihard]

Steve, are you guys doing the exercise this weekend? If so, I'd like to take a look at the BFG IFAK. Has it got 'sleeves' in it for flat pack stuff like tegaderms, chest seals, quickclot, etc?

 

[DirtyDog]

I have no experience with the MoFOCR, but I have bought, hundreds, if not thousands, of dollars worth of CP Gear products.  They have some unique items that I certainly appreciate, especially for us Canucks, but overall I don't think their overall quality (workmanship, design, materials) can compete against TT.

I used a TT split MAV overseas initially fitted with a majority of CP Gear pouches and attatchments.  After a few months, I found the TT products I did have on my rig to be superior overall, in all the categories I mentioned previously, to the CP Gear products and I changed most of them out on tour.  The first thing to go was my snapdragon clip triple mag pouches.  I never seemed to really find them that user friendly and one day while defending my purchase and demonstrating how effective they worked to a dude in my Sect, I actually snapped the buckle.  To me, I shouldn't need a special "technique" to open a mag pouch.

I'm not trying to bash CPG, but I just don't think they are to the level of TT in regards to a lot of kit.  Mind you, I found some of their items superior to TT and other manufactures.  Notably out of 3 40mm bandoliers I tried, I found the CPG one to be the best by far in regards to design.  I will continue to support them by buying some of the unique products they offer for Canadian soldiers that you just couldn't find anywhere else.

 

[Snaketnk]

While I was overseas, there were a good number of MAVs and MoFoCRs. I personally used the 2-piece MAV with X-Harness. The only complaint I had with the MAV was that there wasn't really anywhere to put maps/aide memoires. Easily fixed with a pant pocket. I'd suggest the 2 piece bib; that little extra real estate would be really helpful. VERY quick to put on when shit hits the fan, even with the armour brassards on. I really like it and would probably go the same route if I went back over in a combat-type role.

As for the MoFoCRs... The ones I saw being worn were droopy and not being worn right, and look really uncomfortable. Also saw some problems with donning and doffing. That's obviously second hand experience, so take it for what it's worth.