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Transgender in the CF (merged)

lohocard

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Jarnhamar said:
I don't want any member put in any more risk than they need to be but I hope we stick to a more robust view/approach.  A member of the CAF is a member of the CAF, get over your religious or cultural bias.  Because honestly we need every able bodied person we can get.

You’re right. I’d be willing to go anywhere regardless of what the country’s “laws” are etc. It’s not their business to even know that I’m trans in the first place. How would they know? Tell everyone to drop their pants on the way into the country? There’s no way of them finding out unless captured- and in that case, bad things could happen to anyone regardless if they’re trans or not. My chain doesn’t even know I’m trans. They don’t need to know unless there’s an issue. The only ones that know on my base are the docs.


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Jarnhamar

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lohocard said:
You’re right. I’d be willing to go anywhere regardless of what the country’s “laws” are etc. It’s not their business to even know that I’m trans in the first place. How would they know? Tell everyone to drop their pants on the way into the country? There’s no way of them finding out unless captured- and in that case, bad things could happen to anyone regardless if they’re trans or not. My chain doesn’t even know I’m trans. They don’t need to know unless there’s an issue. The only ones that know on my base are the docs.


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It took me a little while to wrap my head around the bigger picture.

I think the concern with this might be with transitioning members that look different or look transitioning. I'm not saying that to be disrespectful but I think you can understand what I mean?

What if it's the opposite. A trans member wants to deploy and the chain of command says no it's too dangerous which denies the member an opportunity to gain operational experience and a lot of tax free money (including bonuses). Grounds for a redress I'd think.

Interesting debate for sure.
 

Sub_Guy

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My feeling is that we all go as one or we don't go at all.

Host nation doesn't support it, then the host nation doesn't get our support. 

I know it is much more complicated than that.  Although it doesn't have to be.
 

dimsum

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Jarnhamar said:
What if it's the opposite. A trans member wants to deploy and the chain of command says no it's too dangerous which denies the member an opportunity to gain operational experience and a lot of tax free money (including bonuses). Grounds for a redress I'd think.

Interesting debate for sure.

There were (maybe still are on the Tac Hel det?) female aircrew on OP IMPACT, flying over Iraq and Syria.  I have a feeling that they wouldn't be treated the same as male aircrew if captured. 

Still, as far as I know, there was no talk of restricting/preventing them from going over there.
 

blacktriangle

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Dimsum said:
There were (maybe still are on the Tac Hel det?) female aircrew on OP IMPACT, flying over Iraq and Syria.  I have a feeling that they wouldn't be treated the same as male aircrew if captured. 

Still, as far as I know, there was no talk of restricting/preventing them from going over there.

I'm pretty sure the propaganda value of holding Cdn aircrew hostage (because that's what they'd be) would be enough to get us to stop flying around. Male or female, they would do some pretty sick things. But yes, it would be worse for female personnel. I think it would have a shocking impact here at home in the media etc.
 

Cloud Cover

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Jarnhamar said:
I had to google that place, sounds shitty. Interesting point, but trans members aren't nessairly homosexual. Do you think a non-trans, homosexual service member would have a good case not to deploy to Brunei?
The British Army has a substantial training and fwd deployment base there. I wonder if they are going to relocate it now.
 

Jarnhamar

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In training I've been told that men run a greater risk of being sexually assaulted than females because its about power.

Unless we're talking statically because more men deploy than women I really don't believe person for person men run a greater risk. I think women are generally way more at risk.

Given how sick and psychotic the bad guys are over there (burned alive, drowned in a cage) the threat of sexual assault from the enemy seems insignificant, all things considered?

I like Dolphin_Hunters approach to working with our allies. Don't like our policy? Don't ask for help.




 

RCDtpr

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Now admittedly I know very little on the subject, but my understanding is a transgendered individual is on quite a bit of absolutely necessary medication?  How does the CAF get said medication into the country country if that country doesn’t allow it?  Even in Iraq and Kuwait everything we bring (with some obvious exceptions for certain units) has to be declared to their customs through detailed manifests etc.  If said country says no to that medication then what’s the option?  Smuggle it illegally?

I disagree with ANY member of the CAF not being able to deploy and serve, however, I can understand how certain issues can bring logistical nightmares.  The key is finding a proper solution which is well above my pay grade.
 

The Bread Guy

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Jarnhamar said:
In training I've been told that men run a greater risk of being sexually assaulted than females because its about power.

Unless we're talking statically because more men deploy than women I really don't believe person for person men run a greater risk. I think women are generally way more at risk.
If you can without giving away secrets, what kind of sources did the trainers use to back that up?  I can hardly say I'm widely read, but this is the first time I've encountered that concept.

Jarnhamar said:
I like Dolphin_Hunters approach to working with our allies. Don't like our policy? Don't ask for help.
:nod:
 

Blackadder1916

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ExRCDcpl said:
Now admittedly I know very little on the subject, but my understanding is a transgendered individual is on quite a bit of absolutely necessary medication?  How does the CAF get said medication into the country country if that country doesn’t allow it?  Even in Iraq and Kuwait everything we bring (with some obvious exceptions for certain units) has to be declared to their customs through detailed manifests etc.  If said country says no to that medication then what’s the option?  Smuggle it illegally?

I readily agree that you know very little on the subject (my apologies for the dig), but I will also readily admit that my knowledge of the subject is not much greater.  However by refreshing the few facts I did know and drawing on some long ago experience in acquiring medical equipment and supplies overseas am able to make a cogent comment.

This was one of the guidelines I looked at.
Guidelines and Protocols for Hormone Therapy and Primary Health Care for Trans Clients
https://sherbourne.on.ca/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/Guidelines-and-Protocols-for-Comprehensive-Primary-Care-for-Trans-Clients-2015.pdf

The "medical" treatment of trans individuals (as differentiated from "surgical" treatment) is primarily hormone therapy, either giving masculinizing or feminizing hormones and/or medications that block the natural production of hormones.  There is nothing in either regime that is used solely in trans therapy (though as soon as I post this, someone actually educated in the subject will probably come by and correct my premise).  While there may be gaps in the quality of medical care in some of these countries, especially in terms of womens' health, it would surprise me if the necessary drugs to maintain a transgender soldier were not available in most countries with a reasonable health system, even those that would be opposed to the existence of said individuals.  There is nothing labelled "Taboo - Medicine only for Transgendered Patients" that all those foreign customs officials are scanning manifests in search of.

 

Eye In The Sky

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milnews.ca said:
If you can without giving away secrets, what kind of sources did the trainers use to back that up?  I can hardly say I'm widely read, but this is the first time I've encountered that concept.
:nod:

The same info was passed on, more than once, in briefings I attended before each IMPACT ROTO.  The information was given from the guest instructors from K-town.  I don't recall the sources, if they were given, being questioned....given the nature of the briefing and the SMEs it was taken at face value as credible.

I know someone said "I don't care what the host nation laws are"; from experience, that opinion may change if you're in a place like the Middle East, moving around between locations on the ground and your senses and surroundings (including host nation citizens) let you know that you're "not in Kansas anymore".  :2c:   
 

The Bread Guy

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Eye In The Sky said:
The same info was passed on, more than once, in briefings I attended before each IMPACT ROTO ...
That gives me a bit of geographical context.  I took the stat as being global, not local.  Thanks for that.
 

Strike

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Blackadder1916 said:
...There is nothing in either regime that is used solely in trans therapy (though as soon as I post this, someone actually educated in the subject will probably come by and correct my premise).  While there may be gaps in the quality of medical care in some of these countries, especially in terms of womens' health, it would surprise me if the necessary drugs to maintain a transgender soldier were not available in most countries with a reasonable health system, even those that would be opposed to the existence of said individuals.  There is nothing labelled "Taboo - Medicine only for Transgendered Patients" that all those foreign customs officials are scanning manifests in search of.

I think you hit it there. A woman who has had a hysterectomy or a man who has had prostate cancer may both be on hormones of some level, maybe for the rest of their lives.  But barring any other issues, they'd still be able to deploy.
 

Eye In The Sky

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DetectiveMcNulty said:
And that would be your first mistake...  ;D

...I didn't get a vote on those ones though...I did mention "hey we've got a serviceable aircraft eh"...
 

Eye In The Sky

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Strike said:
I think you hit it there. A woman who has had a hysterectomy or a man who has had prostate cancer may both be on hormones of some level, maybe for the rest of their lives.  But barring any other issues, they'd still be able to deploy.

I went away with a guy who had to have shots every week on the deployment...it was all arranged, made it's way to the desert and he didn't miss a mission.  Stuff had to be temp controlled and some other stuff;  it wasn't the ideal situation but it worked.
 

Xylric

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The way I see the subject, human beings are easily abstracted as "meat suits piloted by unique electro-chemical patterns", and as such it's far more effective to look at things from a meritocratic perspective. With the company that I run, for example, the plurality of its staff have some form of neurological divergence - and speaking as a member of that company's board, we honestly have no idea at the full extent of such things, because we only learn as people are willing to disclose. As an example, due to our existence as an entirely digital office, I don't even know the ethnicity of most of the staff. Like sexual identity and orientation, it's completely irrelevant to the skill set and knowledge base a person may possess.

If one can do the job with distinction, without putting one's self or others at undue risk, what other concerns matter?
 

PuckChaser

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Eye In The Sky said:
I went away with a guy who had to have shots every week on the deployment...it was all arranged, made it's way to the desert and he didn't miss a mission.  Stuff had to be temp controlled and some other stuff;  it wasn't the ideal situation but it worked.
Theres obviously huge difference in jobs. Expecting the same accommodation for an infantry soldier in a PSS in Afghanistan is probably not going to happen.
 

Eye In The Sky

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PuckChaser said:
Theres obviously huge difference in jobs. Expecting the same accommodation for an infantry soldier in a PSS in Afghanistan is probably not going to happen.

Nope, not likely.  It will work for some, not for others.  Sailing might also be a challenge.

But, being that we probably have as many AVN Techs in the CAF (reg force) as we do infanteers, it might work for a large majority of folks who have jobs 'inside the wire' or, atleast, are back inside the wire when the sun sets.
 

PuckChaser

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Eye In The Sky said:
Nope, not likely.  It will work for some, not for others.  Sailing might also be a challenge.

But, being that we probably have as many AVN Techs in the CAF (reg force) as we do infanteers, it might work for a large majority of folks who have jobs 'inside the wire' or, atleast, are back inside the wire when the sun sets.

Yep, concur. I think the lesson here is that the CAF is going to do its absolute best to accommodate, but there are going to be bona fide operational requirements where its not possible, so a transgendered member (or member with medical limitations) is not going to be able to deploy to location X or be a member of trade Y.
 
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