Should passenger jets have missile defenses? (Debate prompted by MH17 tragedy)

[George Wallace]

There are smart people in the civilian world too.  The information on fire control radar of a specific type can be found (second or first hand) by sources or by your own collection and analysis.  Don't need to be military or have any security clearance.

To know the exact frequencies that you need to monitor may not be that easy to discern, and will be constantly changing with every different air space you would be flying in.  The amount of frequency profiles that you can load into your detection system is limited.  You will also have to know exactly what weapon systems you are dealing with, in whatever air space you are flying over.

Jamming, I would argue, is fairly cheap.  Think about how much this tragedy will cost then compare it to how much a jammer is sold for.

Jamming is fairly cheap, but what frequencies do you have to jam?  You can't just jam ALL frequencies.  Again, you have to know exactly what weapon systems you are dealing with, and the exact frequencies that they are using. 

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Look, This ain't gonna happen!

Boeing and other providers are looking at satisfying the economic requests of their clients by seeing how many more seats they can stuff in coach by shaving a centimetre here in leg room or in the thickness of the seat padding, etc.

Those airlines owners are not going to spend one dime on any system that is not required to fly in 99% of the planet's airspace (and that covers a lot of airspace) when they can simply fly around the last 1%.

This "threat" of missiles shot at airliner by "terrorists" has been around since the seventies - hell, we had anti-terrorist patrols around Dorval, Mirabel, Kingston and Ottawa airports during the Montreal Olympics because of that.

So far, the only incidents of civilian airplanes being shot by missiles have all come from the military of nation states - and were accidents for which they apologized and took responsibility. The only thing different in the present case is that Russian military screwed up while operating disguised as "rebels" in east Ukraine so they can't take responsibility for their foul up without admitting being there, which the world would condemn even more - and obviously the "rebels" won't take the blame for something they didn't do and are therefore left with no choice but to lie by blaming Ukraine. (This last paragraph is my OPINION on what will ultimately transpire - so don't shot it down as incorrect/unproven/ etc.)

 

[dapaterson]

(This last paragraph is my OPINION on what will ultimately transpire - so don't shot it down as incorrect/unproven/ etc.)

Don't worry; Canada doesn't have any GBAD to shoot it down with

 

[Retired AF Guy]

So far, the only incidents of civilian airplanes being shot by missiles have all come from the military of nation states - and were accidents for which they apologized and took responsibility.

You are right for the most part, however, during the war in Rhodesia the insurgents managed to shoot down two Air Rhodesia airliners using SA-7 Grails.

Source: A Brief History Of Civilian Planes That Have Been Shot Down

 

[winnipegoo7]

There are smart people in the civilian world too.  The information on fire control radar of a specific type can be found (second or first hand) by sources or by your own collection and analysis.  Don't need to be military or have any security clearance.

Jamming, I would argue, is fairly cheap.  Think about how much this tragedy will cost then compare it to how much a jammer is sold for.

I agree that there are smart people in the civilian world.

The specific way an air defence system operates is generally secret and neither the people using the systems, nor those who intend to use Electronic Counter Measures to defeat that system are likely to just give that information away (perhaps it could be bought or stolen?)  It would not be likely that a civilian company could collect on modern air defence systems, unless someone willingly gave them access to the system. The US government spends millions and millions of dollars to collect this type of information - perhaps I am wrong, but I do not foresee a civilian organization building elint satellites, conducting ferret flights or launching raids to capture fire control radars. (once again, perhaps they could buy one on the black market?)

The expensive part of the jammer would be the collecting of the necessary threat information and then the development of an effective jam program.

To know the exact frequencies that you need to monitor may not be that easy to discern, and will be constantly changing with every different air space you would be flying in.  The amount of frequency profiles that you can load into your detection system is limited.  You will also have to know exactly what weapon systems you are dealing with, in whatever air space you are flying over.

Jamming is fairly cheap, but what frequencies do you have to jam?  You can't just jam ALL frequencies.  Again, you have to know exactly what weapon systems you are dealing with, and the exact frequencies that they are using. 

You seem knowledgeable on jamming, and you may already be aware of this, but I would just like to point out that it is more than just knowing frequencies. To jam modern fire control systems you need to actually know how that specific system works. This means learning the systems Electronic Counter Counter Measures (how the system tries to defeat the jammer); the different types of modulation it uses - this could include frequency modulation, interpulse modulation, intrapulse modulation (and I'm sure many others); and then developing an effective program to defeat the system.

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You are right for the most part, however, during the war in Rhodesia the insurgents managed to shoot down two Air Rhodesia airliners using SA-7 Grails.

Source: A Brief History Of Civilian Planes That Have Been Shot Down

I stand corrected. Thank you for the info R.A.F.G.

We seldom think about the goings on in sub-saharan Africa, even if we should not ignore them.