Recruited for Navy SEALs, Many Sailors Wind Up Scraping Paint

[Remius]

I think when we peer into the past we have to remember the environment and the culture at that time. For example commonly accepted means of disciplining a child as recent as the '80s is now considered child abuse. I remember playing ball tag and I took a hard hit and yelled "Jesus Christ", my dad walked through a hedge, punched me in the face and I spent the rest of the afternoon cooking in a Ford Tempo in August in Ont heat. I couldn't imagine doing the same to my daughter. But I don't think my father was wrong either. Its just the way was business was conducted. There his a happy medium.

I'm not debating that WW1 and 2 left a wake of broken men. But I also find it interesting how many came home, coped with their experiences and built productive and loving lives. I don't see that ability in us now. And the only thing I can point to is the differences in how we rear our young. But as I said, I am no psychologist. Just and uneducated observer using his own experiences.

It’s possible. But I also imagine that most went on to lead productive lives (coping I’m not so sure though but I guess coping as they could) because a lot had no intention of serving beyond the war, returned to their family units (large and probably all collocated in the same area) and probably had more people that could understand their experiences including their parents that likely experienced the First World War.

Are we seing more of our current veterans not leading productive and loving lives and not coping now than before? I don’t know. Most of my info would be anecdotal. I know plenty that are coping and few that are not. All likely still struggle in their own way. I think though today, we are far more aware of the mental health aspect.

Like you, I am just as much an uneducated observer.

 

[Remius]

It's amazing when you think about it. It helped that all the men had been through it and knew of War. My great grandfather fought in WW1 as a grunt and his sons all fought in the WW2 as grunts.

The effects of war and conflict were known to them. My great grand father had visible scarring from a mustard gas attack and he lived a shortened life as a result. He probably drank a little too much but otherwise was just a normal guy who did his best to raise his family and manage his rural farm. He died very shortly after my Father was born.

We have a similar family background, my great grandfather was also gassed and luckily lived into his 80s but coughed a lot and anything cardio was a struggle.

The women were also tough. My great grandmother was the one who taught my Father how to fire a rifle and shotgun for the first time. My father's stories of his grandmother are that she was a loving but very tough woman. There was no time for feeling sorry for yourself or self-loathing.

I did a school project in high school on my grandmother. Had to interview her. She worked in a munitions plant. She saw a lot of injuries, people killed on the job or blowing their hands off…

Her husband survived WW1 and they raised 6 children during the Great Depression and then she had to see some of her sons leave for years and go fight yet another War, not knowing if they would return.

It was a different time and yes, the people were tougher than we are today, no question.

Certainly harder.

 

[Halifax Tar]

It’s possible. But I also imagine that most went on to lead productive lives (coping I’m not so sure though but I guess coping as they could) because a lot had no intention of serving beyond the war, returned to their family units (large and probably all collocated in the same area) and probably had more people that could understand their experiences including their parents that likely experienced the First World War.

Are we seing more of our current veterans not leading productive and loving lives and not coping now than before? I don’t know. Most of my info would be anecdotal. I know plenty that are coping and few that are not. All likely still struggle in their own way. I think though today, we are far more aware of the mental health aspect.

Like you, I am just as much an uneducated observer.

I am more talking about our people in general than the modern returning Vets.

I truly don't think we could do what '18ers or '45ers did. Individuals, sure. But as a society we are way to weak. We've become to consumed by superficial problems. Its really a sign of how privileged and opulent the whole of the wester world has become.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Interesting to read through the comments, but wonder how many people end up physically broken by BUD/S that would have otherwise been high flyers in their original trade?

The US has a much higher tolerance for personnel losses than we do in training, so maybe just considered cost of doing business, but sounds like the other SAF courses have better ways of seeing if people are up to the task by adding in other elements other than just physical challenges.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

We have a similar family background, my great grandfather was also gassed and luckily lived into his 80s but coughed a lot and anything cardio was a struggle.

I did a school project in high school on my grandmother. Had to interview her. She worked in a munitions plant. She saw a lot of injuries, people killed on the job or blowing their hands off…

Certainly harder.

That's really interesting. My grandmother also worked in a factory in WW2. She was a young woman working in Halifax when VE Day Riots happened and remembered them vividly.

Halifax riot - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

 

[daftandbarmy]

Interesting to read through the comments, but wonder how many people end up physically broken by BUD/S that would have otherwise been high flyers in their original trade?

The US has a much higher tolerance for personnel losses than we do in training, so maybe just considered cost of doing business, but sounds like the other SAF courses have better ways of seeing if people are up to the task by adding in other elements other than just physical challenges.

All the 'specials' and 'semi-specials' have the same issue.... the raw material isn't as robust as it used to be, viz:

Royal Marines extend training by a month in bid to prevent injuries due to lack of fitness​

ThE Royal Marines have extended recruitment training by a month in an attempt to prevent hundreds of preventable injuries.​

Royal Marines extend training by a month in bid to prevent injuries

ThE Royal Marines have extended recruitment training by a month in an attempt to prevent hundreds of preventable injuries.

www.express.co.uk

 

[RangerRay]

We are always going to have people who endure PTSD. Our job has the distinct possibility of adverse experiences, we have to make peace with that. I directly attribute my ability to deal with death and dismemberment to my rural upbringing. As recent as FRE '20 I was intimately involved with the collection of very ghastly remains. And that stretches as far back as TOR '07 when we recovered a bunch of Yemeni soldiers from the red sea. I've been up to my elbows in blood and guts since I was a wee lad helping the men gut and skin all manner of fish and game, not to mention the normal experiences of a rural life. I was never hid sadness and loss and I was always told that violence is not the answer until its the only option.

The ability for one to endure pain and horror and come out the other side in the best possible shape is really established in the upbringing of the person. The CAF can help, but if there is no foundation I have to wonder how much it can actually accomplish.

I'm no psychologist. Just talking about my own experiences.

My rural upbringing sounds much like yours. I grew up seeing lots of animals, mostly cattle, in various stages of dismemberment and decomposition. I also frequently helped out with slaughtering and butchering said animals. A way better anatomy course than anything I took in school.

That said, if I go to a funeral and see someone in an open casket, or drive by a bad car accident and see a pair of feet sticking out of a blue tarp, my stomach starts turning.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That said, if I go to a funeral and see someone in an open casket, or drive by a bad car accident and see a pair of feet sticking out of a blue tarp, my stomach starts turning.

It should, you're a human. Its not about your stomach churning, its about your ability to carry on with that churn happening. And come out the other side able to carry on. Grieving and mourning periods given.

Just like fear, fear is ok and its natural, some would argue its useful as it heightens your senses. But there are times we may be expected hoist that in and carry on with the task at hand.

I still get shaky before kick of a rugby match. Its not natural to throw your body, unprotected, at other human beings and have them do the same to you. After the first punch or tackle, the shakes are gone and I have a single focus. Then 80 mins later the whistle goes and its all back slaps and beer. Good god what a great sport. Sorry, side track, got lost in my thoughts lol.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It should, you're a human. Its not about your stomach churning, its about your ability to carry on with that churn happening. And come out the other side able to carry on. Grieving and mourning periods given.

Just like fear, fear is ok and its natural, some would argue its useful as it heightens your senses. But there are times we may be expected hoist that in and carry on with the task at hand.

I still get shaky before kick of a rugby match. Its not natural to throw your body, unprotected, at other human beings and have them do the same to you. After the first punch or tackle, the shakes are gone and I have a single focus. Then 80 mins later the whistle goes and its all back slaps and beer. Good god what a great sport. Sorry, side track, got lost in my thoughts lol.

You know why you hid in that ditch?

 

[ArmyRick]

My rural upbringing sounds much like yours. I grew up seeing lots of animals, mostly cattle, in various stages of dismemberment and decomposition. I also frequently helped out with slaughtering and butchering said animals. A way better anatomy course than anything I took in school.

That said, if I go to a funeral and see someone in an open casket, or drive by a bad car accident and see a pair of feet sticking out of a blue tarp, my stomach starts turning.

I have butchered (and farmed) many, many animals (as you have all heard a thousand times).

I do think we need to expose more young Canadians to this type of stuff. Like maybe teach every 8-10 year old how to butcher a rabbit or chicken.
It might tone down the overly western sensitivity we have created in the great North American bubble.

My family doctor and I have had some weird conversations about death, dying, somatic responses, etc (nothing weirder than a skinned beef flexing muscles involuntary 30 minutes post mortem for example). We talked about the mental ability to detach when doing something like this (he explained in ER duties, he has to frequently be mentally detached when people come in totally F*cked up, they need his skills not his emotion).

I would say we can detach ourselves for a bit or in certain situations. However seeing our comrades bloody or dead is a different story. Most important I think, is to emotionally detach ourselves with it in the heat of the moment, deal with it and sort it out (especially for the wounded who need us), then sort yourself out later (talk about it, talk to your peers, don't run from it, speak to the medical system)

Do you guys get what I am saying? Do they still do peer debriefing in the military these days after a traumatic experience?

 

[FormerHorseGuard]

You cannot compare the way our parents, grand parents and great grand parents lived and did and compare it to the standard of today.

My great Grand father on one side of the family, went off to the Great War, after what ever they caller Ontario Hydro back then released him for service. He came back a CSM ( not sure what unit but was Army) He went back to Ontario Hydro till the Second World War and he was asked by the RCAF to lead recruitment for Ontario. Then went back to Ontario Hydro to finish out with 50 plus years of service , then ran the local Hydro service in my home town. Other Great Grand Father came back with the MM in the Great War. He was hated by everyone who ever met him. A very abusive man ( but that was acceptable back then)
Cannot compare their lives, to each other or to mine or to my kids.

Grand Fathers, the son of the MM, he joined the RCAF, Pilot/ Observer Navigator , then did another 25 years service to the Army retired as a Captain. RCAF Grand Father his son died in a RCAF Bomber training flight over Scotland.
That was my moms side.

My father's side , Great grand father, was a hard working man with a drinking, abusive family relationships. But 5 of his 6 sons served ( my grand father was kicked out for awol, drunk etc too often he would of been the 6th son serving if he would lasted thru boot camp) My great grand mother worked till she 70 something as a cook then went to part time hours till she was 78 ( 80 hour week down to a 40 as a cook) They worked hard because they nothing.

The people who were born between 1890s and 1929 lived a different world than we will ever see. They had to do things and live thru things we will never see, Covid is minor bug bite compared to the diseases and illness they had to live thru.
They buried their kids because they could not prevent diseases, or viruses. It was a fact of life, you were going to lose a child.



Todays kids think that combat is like a video game, or a movie. They do not realize people are actually killed till they see it for the first time. We have sheltered them from most unkind acts. Death, funerals, having to kill something to eat it.
I never realized or had it sink into my head that Canadian Soldiers died or were killed on Peace Keeping missions till a person I knew was killed in the 90s. That is when it sunk in my head as a Corporal pay clerk in my comfy office at LFCA, people die being Canadian soldiers.
We protect our children so they do not have to see it or live thru it. We think we are doing them favours by protecting them but maybe they need to see death, not to toughen them up but they see it is a real thing and life is short . We need to stop the awards for just showing up, stop giving everyone a place on the team, they need to learn that they need to earn their spot and work hard to keep it.

The guys and girls who want to be special forces need to realize they are not given a spot, just because they were the cool kid in high school, but they have to show how bad they want the spot, how much harder they will work to beat the other guy to get the spot, they have show how hard they will work to keep the spot once they earned it.

Not everyone is going to be the next Army Ranger fast roping out of a helicopter to protect the fallen helicopter crew, not going to be the Navy Seal Super Sniper and beat the kill record put up by the Legend. Not going to be the next TOP Gun pilot and have movies made about him or her. Most are going to be the average everyday soldier who cannot find his or her way out of a wet paper bag with a flashlight and bayonet. Some will be great leaders and be super mentors to those below but they will never be the super soldier of hollywood movies.

We have to stop the setting up for failure, and the recruiters need to be more honest about the failure rates.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You know why you hid in that ditch?

No one gets out of life alive, let alone war.

 

[KevinB]

I have butchered (and farmed) many, many animals (as you have all heard a thousand times).

I do think we need to expose more young Canadians to this type of stuff. Like maybe teach every 8-10 year old how to butcher a rabbit or chicken.
It might tone down the overly western sensitivity we have created in the great North American bubble.

That used to also occur in Battle Schools years ago...

My family doctor and I have had some weird conversations about death, dying, somatic responses, etc (nothing weirder than a skinned beef flexing muscles involuntary 30 minutes post mortem for example). We talked about the mental ability to detach when doing something like this (he explained in ER duties, he has to frequently be mentally detached when people come in totally F*cked up, they need his skills not his emotion).

I would say we can detach ourselves for a bit or in certain situations. However seeing our comrades bloody or dead is a different story. Most important I think, is to emotionally detach ourselves with it in the heat of the moment, deal with it and sort it out (especially for the wounded who need us), then sort yourself out later (talk about it, talk to your peers, don't run from it, speak to the medical system)

Do you guys get what I am saying? Do they still do peer debriefing in the military these days after a traumatic experience?

Fight or Flight and Act/React have been powerful tools for the human to accomplish tasks under a great deal of stress and/or threats to personal safety.

The big issues seem to be what occurs when all is said and done -- some people are affected differently, and some hide it deep down and never try to deal with it until it comes out - no one comes out unaffected, and everyone should be talking to their peers.
Some of the greatest warriors (and I don't use that term lightly) have had terrible battles with events they buried, or thought they had.

 

[dimsum]

I do think we need to expose more young Canadians to this type of stuff. Like maybe teach every 8-10 year old how to butcher a rabbit or chicken.
It might tone down the overly western sensitivity we have created in the great North American bubble.

That is part of the curriculum in Aircrew Land Survival. You kill and boil a rabbit to eat.

Rabbits squeak, btw.

 

[ArmyRick]

That is part of the curriculum in Aircrew Land Survival. You kill and boil a rabbit to eat.

Rabbits squeak, btw.

Snap their necks quickly and strongly. No noise.

 

[OldSolduer]

That said, if I go to a funeral and see someone in an open casket, or drive by a bad car accident and see a pair of feet sticking out of a blue tarp, my stomach starts turning.

None of that bothers me. A comrade and I pulled a guy out of a burning car. I heard him take his last breaths - the gurgling kind I believe they call tidal breath. I never had any nightmares.
The older I grow the more I realize I am my mother's son. Shit like that never bothered her and she grew up in Scotland during WW2.

 

[Halifax Tar]

That is part of the curriculum in Aircrew Land Survival. You kill and boil a rabbit to eat.

Rabbits squeak, btw.

Funny story time...

I had just finished a morning watch during deer season and was walking back to the truck down some goat paths, around 1100hrs. We had seen a massive amount of rabbits in the previous days so I had brought out the 870 with a mixture of shells in my pocket. Anyways I reached a clearing and looked down and there was a hare sitting on its haunches looking right me about 10 feet away. He didn't move just looked at me. I already had shot loaded so I raised the 870 and peppered him. He didn't move... so I threw shot at him again... He's at least wounded now so I had to put him down. Finally he flops. I reach down to pick him up and unbeknownst to me, my father and in law had set slip lol. Yup, he was snared lol Poor bugger, strangled and shot.

 

[dimsum]

Funny story time...

I had just finished a morning watch during deer season and was walking back to the truck down some goat paths, around 1100hrs. We had seen a massive amount of rabbits in the previous days so I had brought out the 870 with a mixture of shells in my pocket. Anyways I reached a clearing and looked down and there was a hare sitting on its haunches looking right me about 10 feet away. He didn't move just looked at me. I already had shot loaded so I raised the 870 and peppered him. He didn't move... so I threw shot at him again... He's at least wounded now so I had to put him down. Finally he flops. I reach down to pick him up and unbeknownst to me, my father and in law had set slip lol. Yup, he was snared lol Poor bugger, strangled and shot.

Geneva Convention enters the chat