Public Service Sick Leave - Split from: Pay Raise (2014 - 2016) & Back Pay

[Occam]

PSAC is still negotiating their contract, as they are the largest of the public service unions our rates won't change until after theirs is finalized. They're asking for 3% a year for the 3 years of the contract (which would include 2 years retroactive since 2014). There's many other issues they're negotiating on (sick leave being the main one) which is why it's been a slow process.

Best case scenario they make some sort of concession on sick leave and get a bigger pay raise!

Those numbers you quoted are accurate for the last union submission, but the latest TB submission still has the employer insisting that the sick leave/short term disability plan reside outside the collective agreement.  And the unions are just as adamant that sick leave/short term disability belong part of the collective agreement.

It's really shaping up to be an irresistable force vs. immovable object situation.

 

[armyvern]

  And the unions are just as adamant that sick leave/short term disability belong part of the collective agreement.

And, all the unions have signed a "solidarity pact" NOT to cave to the Feds on this issue and to insist that it remains within the collective agreements.

Superman vs Batman wasn't it?  Didn't see the movie - have no idea who won.

 

[Remius]

And, all the unions have signed a "solidarity pact" NOT to cave to the Feds on this issue and to insist that it remains within the collective agreements.

Superman vs Batman wasn't it?  Didn't see the movie - have no idea who won.

What is being proposed is not likely going to be acceptable to the union.  Not at least without some sort of carrot.

 

[Occam]

I can't speak for other unions, but our leadership has indicated that it had better be a bloody big carrot before the solidarity pact gets broken.

 

[armyvern]

I can't speak for other unions, but our leadership has indicated that it had better be a bloody big carrot before the solidarity pact gets broken.

So also sayeth the Union President who is an employee in my current Unit.

 

[RADOPSIGOPACCISOP]

I can't speak for other unions, but our leadership has indicated that it had better be a bloody big carrot before the solidarity pact gets broken.

I know some provincial governments amalgamate sick and vacation leave. Instead of 3 weeks vacation and 3 weeks sick you'd get 5 weeks combined leave to use as you see fit. Maybe not everyone would be ok with losing that extra week, but the ones who resist calling in sick would likely get more time off.

 

[Good2Golf]

That sort of TB submission is relatively easy - copy the last one, change the dates, and once the percentages are identified, run the numbers and update the tables.

You mean the last two of them based on agreed upon rates that seem to have not yet made it to the Board? 

I'm from Missouri...

 

[Pusser]

So also sayeth the Union President who is an employee in my current Unit.

Really?  And you actually have a chance to talk to him?  I had a union vice president (a national level guy) who "worked" for me years ago.  At that point, he hadn't actually reported for work in over 12 years.  I only knew who he was is because I signed his leave chits.

 

[jollyjacktar]

And how does one not report to work for 12 years, but still remain an employee, earn leave, get paid but not fired??

 

[PuckChaser]

And how does one not report to work, but still remain an employee, earn leave, get paid but not fired??

Welcome to Public Service unions. Its the same reason they're bitching about losing 16 banked (at minimum) sick days a year, instead of wanting a robust LTD program that pays them even if they're a new employee. Screw the new guy to help the old blood.

 

[FSTO]

Welcome to Public Service unions. Its the same reason they're bitching about losing 16 banked (at minimum) sick days a year, instead of wanting a robust LTD program that pays them even if they're a new employee. Screw the new guy to help the old blood.

Correct me if I'm wrong but do they get to accumulate sick days year after year?

 

[PuckChaser]

Correct me if I'm wrong but do they get to accumulate sick days year after year?

Yep, they sure do. Liberals rolled back the changes that removed accumulation and imposed short and long term disability programs as a reward for PSAC's support in the election. Cost $900M.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-sick-leave-scott-brison-1.3433896

 

[Pusser]

And how does one not report to work for 12 years, but still remain an employee, earn leave, get paid but not fired??

As part of their collective agreements, public servants are allowed time away from work for union duties.  If their union duties are full time, then they never actually have to do their jobs.  To add insult to injury, his job was reclassified while he was "absent" meaning a pretty good raise in pay (which was an absolutely proper and long overdue thing for the other workers of his classification), but if he had actually returned to his job, he would have been grossly unqualified for it.  It would have been my job to ensure that was trained.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Thanks, I think, for the clarification.  :stars:

 

[Navy_Pete]

Yep, they sure do. Liberals rolled back the changes that removed accumulation and imposed short and long term disability programs as a reward for PSAC's support in the election. Cost $900M.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/federal-sick-leave-scott-brison-1.3433896

I've got to be honest, I don't mind this; if I had a company I would try and do the same.  Also, cost estimates for those are pretty meaningless as they have it as loss of 'productivity'.  I think one sick person taking a few days is better then having them come in and making a lot of people sick, and if it's a long term thing then they are probably not productive anyway.

However, I would treat abuses of this as grounds for firing, so maybe the unions should stop automatically backing all of their members, regardless of whether or not their actions are defensible.  Protecting the bad ones makes it harder for the good ones as they have to pick up the slack, and holistically gets them a bad reputation and eventually they are fighting to keep their benefits due to real/perceived abuses of them.

 

[Scoobie Newbie]

Do you know how hard it is to fire a civvie

 

[bLUE fOX]

Is it significantly harder then getting a green guy fired?

 

[Occam]

Welcome to Public Service unions. Its the same reason they're bitching about losing 16 banked (at minimum) sick days a year, instead of wanting a robust LTD program that pays them even if they're a new employee. Screw the new guy to help the old blood.

That's a pretty neat trick, considering we only earn 9.375 hours of sick time per month, or 15 days per year. 

Yep, they sure do. Liberals rolled back the changes that removed accumulation and imposed short and long term disability programs as a reward for PSAC's support in the election. Cost $900M.

Try little to no cost - you've been listening to Tony "Gazebo" Clement a little too much.  The PBO says most departments don't backfill when someone is sick, therefore there's no additional cost.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/civil-servant-sick-leave-costs-minimal-for-taxpayers-report-says-1.2708344

I've noted that some of your posts have a distinct anti-union tone to them.  If you insist on doing that, please make sure you have all of the facts.

 

[ballz]

That's a pretty neat trick, considering we only earn 9.375 hours of sick time per month, or 15 days per year. 

Try little to no cost - you've been listening to Tony "Gazebo" Clement a little too much.  The PBO says most departments don't backfill when someone is sick, therefore there's no additional cost.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/civil-servant-sick-leave-costs-minimal-for-taxpayers-report-says-1.2708344

I've noted that some of your posts have a distinct anti-union tone to them.  If you insist on doing that, please make sure you have all of the facts.

The government is very poor at this, a profitable business in the private sector would never make this mistake. Just because someone makes "x" money regardless if they do anything or nothing, doesn't mean that there isn't a cost to having them miss a day of work or that there isn't a cost of having them do extra work (which is the false assumption we make military all the time). Accounting in general doesn't "account for" opportunity costs as that is not its purpose, that is a financial executive's bag to worry about.

If we bargained to give all public servants 6 months of sick leave, and they all took it each year, we have essentially doubled our cost of doing anything, despite what the NDP might argue that it didn't actually cost us anything extra. It costs us when only half the amount of work gets done.

In the military, we like to use people on all salary to take care of extra work. A good example is cancelling the Commissionaire contract for the night shift at the front gate of the base and replacing him with the duty personnel (a WO/Lt/Captain, Sergeant, and Pte/Cpl). Congrats, that is 2920 hours you don't have to pay out each year.... but now you are losing a day's work out of a Captain and a Sergeant who aren't going to work the next day.... I think the combined day's wages for a Captain / Sergeant far outweighs that of a Commissionaire, but on the books it looks like savings we achieved.

 

[Occam]

The government is very poor at this, a profitable business in the private sector would never make this mistake. Just because someone makes "x" money regardless if they do anything or nothing, doesn't mean that there isn't a cost to having them miss a day of work or that there isn't a cost of having them do extra work (which is the false assumption we make military all the time). Accounting in general doesn't "account for" opportunity costs as that is not its purpose, that is a financial executive's bag to worry about.

If I take a sick day, my work (and any that I missed while I was away) is waiting for me when I get back.  Nobody is doing it for me.  You can have it done fast, good or cheap - pick two.  More often than not, good takes the hit in order to get caught up.

Prior to me being hired into the position, the position went vacant for six months while the staffing process glacially went through the motions.  There are still minor, administrative jobs that I haven't gotten caught up on, and I've been in the position almost five years now.

All that to say - there's no financial cost as was alluded to.  There may be other costs, yes - but not financial ones.

If we bargained to give all public servants 6 months of sick leave, and they all took it each year, we have essentially doubled our cost of doing anything, despite what the NDP might argue that it didn't actually cost us anything extra. It costs us when only half the amount of work gets done.

That's not a financial cost, though - it's a loss of productivity.

BTW, how did NDP get into this?  The article I cited dealt with a PBO report.