• Thanks for stopping by. Logging in to a registered account will remove all generic ads. Please reach out with any questions or concerns.

CRCN Message on the Steward Occupation Town Hall (Steward trade elimination)

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,551
Points
1,260
@Halifax Tar, not discounting your experience, but even 4 people per ship, with 8-10 CPFs up and running is 32-40 people that don't actually exist in other trades. I think the full remar is still 7 or 8, so really up to 60-70 positions in the fleet. That's the equivalent of an entire AOPs crew.

So maybe not a big deal looking at a single ship, but at a fleet level this is a non-trivial demand on other trades that are already unable to fill billets.

The RCN wants to keep all the MCDVs, sail the Oriole and have multiple CPFs at HR, all while somehow getting new ships with additional billets. We just don't have the people, and all the NAVGENs in the world won't magically create trained sailors. We're running the ships dangerously short handed as it is, and the FRE fire on any non-HR ship would have likely gone far worse (possibly aground).

In that context the RCN makes Pollyanna look like a pessimist when it comes to HR solutions, and so far our COAs on the existing HR shortages are hope nothing happens, and it will all work itself out. Driving around 30 year old warships that don't meet commercial safety standards with minimum crews is just rolling the dice at this point, and the cumulative impacts of the thousands of technical defects, HR shortages, training deficiences, missing equipment etc is a bit terrifying if you look at it together (so we just don't do that).

I truly think you're over appreciating the operational value and impact of the STW occupation. Yes, they provided a service, and yes we can do that job better with another organizational structure. That's tough news for some I get it, but my hands and my eyes tell me its true.

If it was up to me; and I thought my trade was healthy enough, I would take all the S1 to S3 STW billets and give them to Supply. Then I would give MSE, CSE and Deck a dedicated full time storesman in their dept thus freeing up a tradesperson to get back to their job.

How do you do go from no stewards is bad to :

In that context the RCN makes Pollyanna look like a pessimist when it comes to HR solutions, and so far our COAs on the existing HR shortages are hope nothing happens, and it will all work itself out. Driving around 30 year old warships that don't meet commercial safety standards with minimum crews is just rolling the dice at this point, and the cumulative impacts of the thousands of technical defects, HR shortages, training deficiences, missing equipment etc is a bit terrifying if you look at it together (so we just don't do that).

You and I hoe the same row when it comes to the material state and ops skeds of the fleet. The elimination of the STW trade has little no impact on that. I have yet to see any documentation that says all former STW billets will be force filled by MSE or what ever dept. As I have said, I see the cooks getting 1 more position and the same with supply. With the NPF accounting being picked up by FSA without augmentation. The rest can be made ATR positions.

I think you're carrying this torch a little too high my friend. But time will tell.

I imagine I will be posted to Ottawa when this comes to an end, how about we go have a beer and see how it all washed up ?
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,040
I truly think you're over appreciating the operational value and impact of the STW occupation. Yes, they provided a service, and yes we can do that job better with another organizational structure. That's tough news for some I get it, but my hands and my eyes tell me its true.

If it was up to me; and I thought my trade was healthy enough, I would take all the S1 to S3 STW billets and give them to Supply. Then I would give MSE, CSE and Deck a dedicated full time storesman in their dept thus freeing up a tradesperson to get back to their job.

How do you do go from no stewards is bad to :



You and I hoe the same row when it comes to the material state and ops skeds of the fleet. The elimination of the STW trade has little no impact on that. I have yet to see any documentation that says all former STW billets will be force filled by MSE or what ever dept. As I have said, I see the cooks getting 1 more position and the same with supply. With the NPF accounting being picked up by FSA without augmentation. The rest can be made ATR positions.

I think you're carrying this torch a little too high my friend. But time will tell.

I imagine I will be posted to Ottawa when this comes to an end, how about we go have a beer and see how it all washed up ?
Your probably right about me getting too worked up about just the stewards in particular, but it's the overall big picture of the several thousand issues the CPFs are running around with, plus HR, plus a lack of credible plan to stop things from getting worse that I guess I find concerning.

If there were other trades with capacity, replacing the stewards would be pretty straightforward, but also takes up a lot of bandwidth on the occ manager/training side.

I don't see trades with capacity, and the bandwidth for training really should be getting put towards the known major gaps in training. Things like bunker gear and extinguishers aren't getting properly maintained because we lost fire fighters and canned HTs without properly figuring out what they actually did, and training people to do it.

It just seems like a completely unecessary change to add to the pile, when we already have more issues to sort out, but will be a distraction stopping us from doing important things (like Wifi related ECs getting pushed ahead of safety ones).
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,551
Points
1,260
Your probably right about me getting too worked up about just the stewards in particular, but it's the overall big picture of the several thousand issues the CPFs are running around with, plus HR, plus a lack of credible plan to stop things from getting worse that I guess I find concerning.

If there were other trades with capacity, replacing the stewards would be pretty straightforward, but also takes up a lot of bandwidth on the occ manager/training side.

I don't see trades with capacity, and the bandwidth for training really should be getting put towards the known major gaps in training. Things like bunker gear and extinguishers aren't getting properly maintained because we lost fire fighters and canned HTs without properly figuring out what they actually did, and training people to do it.

It just seems like a completely unecessary change to add to the pile, when we already have more issues to sort out, but will be a distraction stopping us from doing important things (like Wifi related ECs getting pushed ahead of safety ones).

We are onside. The HT trade should have remained outside the MARTECH boondoggle. Or the whole boondoggle should have been aborted before birth. The fleet's engineering and material issues are immense. There also seems to have been much resistance to the MARTECH amalgamation and it doesn't seemed to have subsided. Where the CSE amalgamation seems, from outside, to have worked and most seem to be happy, I stand to be corrected.

I can recognize that adding the dissolution of the STW trade to an already strained environment might look like another mistake, I just don't see it as having a major impact, and I think its a step in the right direction.
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,040
We are onside. The HT trade should have remained outside the MARTECH boondoggle. Or the whole boondoggle should have been aborted before birth. The fleet's engineering and material issues are immense. There also seems to have been much resistance to the MARTECH amalgamation and it doesn't seemed to have subsided. Where the CSE amalgamation seems, from outside, to have worked and most seem to be happy, I stand to be corrected.

I can recognize that adding the dissolution of the STW trade to an already strained environment might look like another mistake, I just don't see it as having a major impact, and I think its a step in the right direction.
I think for the MARTECHs people didn't really appreciate how tribal the different trades were before amalgamation and how completely different the type of work, schedules etc was between the trades. Some of that dates back to the steamer days.

For the HTs they weren't in watchkeeping positions, and ETs stopped being watchkeepers after becoming techs, so that was a big adjustment. The HTs also did the particular shitty jobs on the blackwater and other hotel systems, but seemed to take it as a necessary evil to do the fun things they joined for like RAT, welding etc.

I think the CSEs were generally already on watches, with the job scope being closer so seems to be less of an issue.

I think if we had kept HTs as a specialization (which was an option that was rejected) we wouldn't be having the problems we are now. The actual transition to 1 in 2 was fine, but does mean you need to be closer to remar; it was a lot easier to manage shortages before hand on the ET/HT side when they were day workers. From what I can tell talking to people that are quitting, it's because they joined to do one thing but aren't really doing that any more, and picked up a lot of new work they aren't interested in. Plus being massively shorthanded but sailing anyway, in ships missing basic capabilities it all kinds of adds up.

I can see other trades being brought into do steward jobs having the same issue with doing things they didn't join to do, and also getting tagged with the same crap stewards had thrown their way. On the flipside acting as a CO's personal cook sounds like a great CV item for anyone looking to get out and work as an executive chef.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,551
Points
1,260
I think for the MARTECHs people didn't really appreciate how tribal the different trades were before amalgamation and how completely different the type of work, schedules etc was between the trades. Some of that dates back to the steamer days.

I think the toppling of some real empires, as you allude too, as very much a part of this.

For the HTs they weren't in watchkeeping positions, and ETs stopped being watchkeepers after becoming techs, so that was a big adjustment. The HTs also did the particular shitty jobs on the blackwater and other hotel systems, but seemed to take it as a necessary evil to do the fun things they joined for like RAT, welding etc.

Agreed. HT was a fantastic trade.

I think the CSEs were generally already on watches, with the job scope being closer so seems to be less of an issue.

Ya CSE seems to have gone much smoother.

I think if we had kept HTs as a specialization (which was an option that was rejected) we wouldn't be having the problems we are now. The actual transition to 1 in 2 was fine, but does mean you need to be closer to remar; it was a lot easier to manage shortages before hand on the ET/HT side when they were day workers. From what I can tell talking to people that are quitting, it's because they joined to do one thing but aren't really doing that any more, and picked up a lot of new work they aren't interested in. Plus being massively shorthanded but sailing anyway, in ships missing basic capabilities it all kinds of adds up.

Agreed.

I can see other trades being brought into do steward jobs having the same issue with doing things they didn't join to do, and also getting tagged with the same crap stewards had thrown their way. On the flipside acting as a CO's personal cook sounds like a great CV item for anyone looking to get out and work as an executive chef.

I don't understand this issue. Everyone has to do things that aren't in their recruitment job description. People like to bitch, particularly RCN folks. Jobs like scullery are important for the health and habitability of the ship. Menial, sure. But stop washing plates and cutlery and watch how fast illness grows. The concept of everyone is a cog in the wheel is very much foreign to the RCN at times, from my observations. The amount of times I heard some PO1 or CPO2 exclaim the ship cant with out them is nauseating. STFU and do your job, or piss off and give someone else the shot you're not that important.

Try being Logistics. We had to sit the LS PER board twice , and I wasn't allowed into the board to represent my LS on the second go around*, on my last FRE trip because Ops threw a fit that a Sup Tech was going to come out number 1 while we were on an operation. To give credit where its due, MSE and CSE backed up Log hard both times and that member still came out number 1.

*Apparently I was too aggressive/intimidating and dominant.
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,040
Yeah, I don't get it either, it's pretty hard to do operations if you don't have parts, fuel, propulsion etc, so everyone has to do their part. Dish washing isnt' glamourous but absolutely necessary, but if you are there to learn how to be an electrician and that's what you do for 6 months it's a big disatisfier (and why we used it as a rotating gig for a few trainees). Fighting the supremacy of ops for deployed PERs is almost a collective responsibility for the Log/MSED/CSEDs though!

It's a bit like people that are assholes to serving staff in restaurants etc, cashiers etc someone has to do it. I think everyone should do a service job early on in life for some perspective.
 

Kilted

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
626
Points
990
How many Stewarts would be on the average ship? Is this change going to affect dozens or hundreds of people?
 

Navy_Pete

Army.ca Veteran
Subscriber
Reaction score
2,631
Points
1,040
Which is pretty funny, given how many people get wound up about the capitalization use of italics for ship names, use of weird short forms (fo'csle, bos'n, etc), or other weird bits of arcana.
 

Halifax Tar

Army.ca Veteran
Reaction score
3,551
Points
1,260
Never let necessity, or common sense get in the way of trivial displays of power.

I have had my section broke in two watches to facilitate pre deployment leave and going sideways trying to get the ship stored and action all the engineering requirements only be told to hold in place... The XO needs purple pens and enough for the next 6 months...

I love my Navy deeply, very very deeply. But its in need of some hard lessons and tough love.
 
Top