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GAP said:
Documents are scans in pdf so won't work but thanks. If you see any links with the documents and translations I would be interested in reading them.
GAP said:
Meridian said:Well, in some respects WE (Canada) as a nation are creating terrorists by being in Afghanistan as well. Heck, if you follow the logic long enough, we would be an influence on terrorist propagation just by being a part of western culture, even if we disbanded our military as a whole and trended all of our policies towards isolationism.
The thing is, western culture isn't the only cause. It's just a catalyst. Something to blame it all on. If you look at Iraq, a lot of the violence there is intra-Islam. The country was literally held together by Saddam's authoritarian regime. Without it, you now have all the warlords fighting with each other. When you conflux extreme poverty with years of fighting and war, with Religion (Christianity isn't a rose garden either, when you consider history), with jealousy and perceived (or actual) arrogance of "better-off' foreign nations... you get the middle-east.
There are so many competing interests in that world that I am surprised our local chapter of the Anarchists haven't all moved out there. Matter of fact, haven't heard from em in a while.
Unfortunately, Iraq has become a rallying point for a large number of wing nuts and the coalition is in a no win situation. The US cannot pull out because the country would descend into anarchy but as long as they stay it will be difficult for the situation to stabilize. It is a difficult position to be in and I, personally, would not want to be the one to figure it out. The politicizing of Iraq also doesn't help.Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:Canada and the west was a target long before Canada's involvment in the Ghan. Warlords? Iraq is not Somalia.
Its Sunni vs Shia. Along with any tin-pot terr who want to take a shot at us.
Wes
rmacqueen said:Hindsight being 20/20, it is too bad that the US rushed ahead like they did instead of ensuring the Afghanistan situation was stable first. Iraq could have been contained for a few more years and we wouldn't be seeing what has basically become a 2 front war. I could be mistaken but I have not heard any justification for going into Iraq when they did (if anyone has a reason please let me know)
Wesley 'Over There' (formerly Down Under) said:Canada and the west was a target long before Canada's involvment in the Ghan. Warlords? Iraq is not Somalia.
Its Sunni vs Shia. Along with any tin-pot terr who want to take a shot at us.
Wes
Meridian said:In fact, I alluded to the idea that western culture in and of itself is a cause. Not the entire reason, but a cause. In my estimation, anyway.
"Calling of a Generation" was not supposed to be a debate about the American intervention in Iraq, but about president Bush defining the War on Terror (the CBC calls it "the so-called War on Terror") as a struggle for the survival of liberal democracy. Some people agree with him, other do not. What's your position?
Meridian said:Actually George, if we were also islamic fundamentalists over here in the West, we wouldn't be such a problem....
My point is that our western culture does not agree with islamic fundamentalist culture. It goes both ways, really. Each culture says the other is wrong.
cplcaldwell said:I disagree with him. In regard to Iraq or Afstan we are dealing with nasty people who could and have and will (try and sometimes succeed at) killing us, our loved ones and our kids.
I do not believe these same people can 'bring down' Western Democracy. They can cause a lot of pain and death, they can materially affect the standards of our living, but they do not now nor have they in the case of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan or SH's Iraq been able to bring us down. Iran in the future, Saddam if he had been left alone, possibly, but moot.
We can talk all we want about Iraq, I think that Canada was right not to go in. I don't think Australia was wrong. Nations are independant actors, and they all stand for their own thing.
Having said that, is it a war worth fighting. Yes.
One could argue that the act of 9/11 and our reaction to it is bringing our culture down on it's own. The increased security and it's resultant paranoia is slowly eroding our very way of life and giving ammunition to the radicals. On various radio shows on Monday I heard over and over again how people were more afraid because of 9/11 but the reality is that the terrorists got lucky in the destruction they managed to do. This was not the first attack by extremists on US soil but people act like it was.cplcaldwell said:I disagree with him. In regard to Iraq or Afstan we are dealing with nasty people who could and have and will (try and sometimes succeed at) killing us, our loved ones and our kids.
I do not believe these same people can 'bring down' Western Democracy. They can cause a lot of pain and death, they can materially affect the standards of our living, but they do not now nor have they in the case of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan or SH's Iraq been able to bring us down. Iran in the future, Saddam if he had been left alone, possibly, but moot.
Tolstoyevsky said:You're making some very good points, but, personally, I'm worried. I'm worried by the political pressures of a Muslim minority in Ontario trying to make the Sharia a parallel provincial law. Fortunately for all of us, they were unsuccessful.
You're making some very good points, but, personally, I'm worried. I'm worried by the political pressures of a Muslim minority in Ontario trying to make the Sharia a parallel provincial law. Fortunately for all of us, they were unsuccessful. There is also the issue of present, non-integrated (partly because of the policies of multiculturalism) immigrant minorities with explosive nationality. In 20 years, the majority population in both Holland and Belgium is gonna be Muslim.