Calling of a Generation

[rmacqueen]

Need a translation? try

http://babelfish.altavista.com/

Documents are scans in pdf so won't work but thanks.  If you see any links with the documents and translations I would be interested in reading them.

 

[GAP]

open office converts pdf I believe..

http://www.openoffice.org/index.html

 

[1feral1]

Well, in some respects WE (Canada) as a nation are creating terrorists by being in Afghanistan as well.  Heck, if you follow the logic long enough, we would be an influence on terrorist propagation just by being a part of western culture, even if we disbanded our military as a whole and trended all of our policies towards isolationism.

The thing is, western culture isn't the only cause. It's just a catalyst.  Something to blame it all on. If you look at Iraq,  a lot of the violence there is intra-Islam.  The country was literally held together by Saddam's authoritarian regime.  Without it, you now have all the warlords fighting with each other.  When you conflux extreme poverty with years of fighting and war, with Religion (Christianity isn't a rose garden either, when you consider history), with jealousy and perceived (or actual) arrogance of "better-off' foreign nations... you get the middle-east.

There are so many competing interests in that world that I am surprised our local chapter of the Anarchists haven't all moved out there. Matter of fact, haven't heard from em in a while.

Canada and the west was a target long before Canada's involvment in the Ghan. Warlords? Iraq is not Somalia.

Its Sunni vs Shia. Along with any tin-pot terr who want to take a shot at us.

Wes

 

[rmacqueen]

Canada and the west was a target long before Canada's involvment in the Ghan. Warlords? Iraq is not Somalia.

Its Sunni vs Shia. Along with any tin-pot terr who want to take a shot at us.

Wes

Unfortunately, Iraq has become a rallying point for a large number of wing nuts and the coalition is in a no win situation.  The US cannot pull out because the country would descend into anarchy but as long as they stay it will be difficult for the situation to stabilize.  It is a difficult position to be in and I, personally, would not want to be the one to figure it out.  The politicizing of Iraq also doesn't help.

Hindsight being 20/20, it is too bad that the US rushed ahead like they did instead of ensuring the Afghanistan situation was stable first.  Iraq could have been contained for a few more years and we wouldn't be seeing what has basically become a 2 front war.  I could be mistaken but I have not heard any justification for going into Iraq when they did (if anyone has a reason please let me know)

 

[Remius]

Hindsight being 20/20, it is too bad that the US rushed ahead like they did instead of ensuring the Afghanistan situation was stable first.  Iraq could have been contained for a few more years and we wouldn't be seeing what has basically become a 2 front war.  I could be mistaken but I have not heard any justification for going into Iraq when they did (if anyone has a reason please let me know)

Who knows now what the reason is/was.  We've all heard that it was WMD's, terrosrists, possible future threat, oil, revenge etc etc.

The problem is that it is so muddled now.  History might tell in when people can be a little more objective. 

For now the situation exists as it is and has to be dealt with one way or another.

 

[1feral1]

Regardless of all the what ifs, speculation, hindsights, and all the reasons, the if nots, and becauses. We must deal with the facts. We are here, lets prosecute this war the best we can, get our jobs done safely and get the helll out of here.

There will be US/western involvement here for decades to come. Look how long Canada was in Germany!

Wes

 

[Meridian]

Canada and the west was a target long before Canada's involvment in the Ghan. Warlords? Iraq is not Somalia.

Its Sunni vs Shia. Along with any tin-pot terr who want to take a shot at us.

Wes

Wes, I argued that we are creating more terrorists by being there; I did not say we were never previously a target. In fact, I alluded to the idea that western culture in and of itself is a cause.  Not the entire reason, but a cause.  In my estimation, anyway.

As far as the warlord analogy....  From what I've read and heard (not just from mainstream media), there are many little "warlords" around Iraq (and Afghanistan), I'm not the first to use the term in this context.  Essentiallly what I mean is sectarian leaders who are keen to gain as much power as they can over as large a territory as they can in order to perpetuate their beliefs, through the use of violence and armed men. 

 

[Tolstoyevsky]

"Calling of a Generation" was not supposed to be a debate about the American intervention in Iraq, but about president Bush defining the War on Terror (the CBC calls it "the so-called War on Terror") as a struggle for the survival of liberal democracy. Some people agree with him, others do not. What's your position?

 

[George Wallace]

In fact, I alluded to the idea that western culture in and of itself is a cause.  Not the entire reason, but a cause.  In my estimation, anyway.

Well....The only way that I am able to agree with you that the "West is a cause" is to acknowledge that the West exists.  Just our existance is the cause of this problem.  Without our existance, there would be no reason for these fundamentalists to hate us.   :

 

[Meridian]

Actually George,  if we were also islamic fundamentalists over here in the West, we wouldn't be such a problem....

My point is that our western culture does not agree with islamic fundamentalist culture.  It goes both ways, really. Each culture says the other is wrong.

But yes, moving back on topic...  this is really what Bush is referring to;  the fact that Western "Democractic" culture and "Freedom" can not be sustained in an environment that includes islamic fundamentalism radicallized to the extreme.  Which I agree with.  If the West were to become extreme isolationists, and the Middle-East were to do the same, I think we could all hunker down and enjoy our own parts of the world, but the likelyhood of that is well,  nil.

 

[cplcaldwell]

"Calling of a Generation" was not supposed to be a debate about the American intervention in Iraq, but about president Bush defining the War on Terror (the CBC calls it "the so-called War on Terror") as a struggle for the survival of liberal democracy. Some people agree with him, other do not. What's your position?

I disagree with him. In regard to Iraq or Afstan we are dealing with nasty people who could and have and will (try and sometimes succeed at) killing us, our loved ones and our kids.

I do not believe these same people can 'bring down' Western Democracy. They can cause a lot of pain and death, they can materially affect the standards of our living, but they do not now nor have they in the case of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan or SH's Iraq been able to bring us down. Iran in the future, Saddam if he had been left alone, possibly, but moot.

We can talk all we want about Iraq, I think that Canada was right not to go in. I don't think Australia was wrong. Nations are independant actors, and they all stand for their own thing.

Having said that, is it a war worth fighting. Yes.

 

[George Wallace]

Actually George,  if we were also islamic fundamentalists over here in the West, we wouldn't be such a problem....

My point is that our western culture does not agree with islamic fundamentalist culture.  It goes both ways, really. Each culture says the other is wrong.

???  Isn't that what I said?  If we did not exist, they would not hate us.  The mere fact that our Western Civilization exists, is enough for them to 'hate' us and call for our annihilation.  Our mere existence is 'Cause' for them to hate.

 

[Tolstoyevsky]

I disagree with him. In regard to Iraq or Afstan we are dealing with nasty people who could and have and will (try and sometimes succeed at) killing us, our loved ones and our kids.

I do not believe these same people can 'bring down' Western Democracy. They can cause a lot of pain and death, they can materially affect the standards of our living, but they do not now nor have they in the case of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan or SH's Iraq been able to bring us down. Iran in the future, Saddam if he had been left alone, possibly, but moot.

We can talk all we want about Iraq, I think that Canada was right not to go in. I don't think Australia was wrong. Nations are independant actors, and they all stand for their own thing.

Having said that, is it a war worth fighting. Yes.

You're making some very good points, but, personally, I'm worried. I'm worried by the political pressures of a Muslim minority in Ontario trying to make the Sharia a parallel provincial law. Fortunately for all of us, they were unsuccessful. There is also the issue of present, non-integrated (partly because of the policies of multiculturalism) immigrant minorities with explosive natality. In 20 years, the majority population in both Holland and Belgium is gonna be Muslim.

 

[rmacqueen]

I disagree with him. In regard to Iraq or Afstan we are dealing with nasty people who could and have and will (try and sometimes succeed at) killing us, our loved ones and our kids.

I do not believe these same people can 'bring down' Western Democracy. They can cause a lot of pain and death, they can materially affect the standards of our living, but they do not now nor have they in the case of Mullah Omar's Afghanistan or SH's Iraq been able to bring us down. Iran in the future, Saddam if he had been left alone, possibly, but moot.

One could argue that the act of 9/11 and our reaction to it is bringing our culture down on it's own.  The increased security and it's resultant paranoia is slowly eroding our very way of life and giving ammunition to the radicals.  On various radio shows on Monday I heard over and over again how people were more afraid because of 9/11 but the reality is that the terrorists got lucky in the destruction they managed to do.  This was not the first attack by extremists on US soil but people act like it was.

The challenge we face has more to do with keeping our values and beliefs in the face of those who wish to destroy them.  We cannot let fear rule us because that is their goal and, unfortunately, they seem to be succeeding in it.  Just look at how often you hear about Islam and how to keep Muslims happy so they don't become radicals.  It is like, prior to 9/11, there were not any Muslims living happy peaceful lives in this country.  And when the President of the US attempts to ignore and over ride the constitution we are heading into some very scary territory.

Holding onto our values is what I believe is the true calling of a generation.

 

[1feral1]

You're making some very good points, but, personally, I'm worried. I'm worried by the political pressures of a Muslim minority in Ontario trying to make the Sharia a parallel provincial law. Fortunately for all of us, they were unsuccessful.

Maybe the do-gooders and the snivel libertarians with politicall power of our own society are our own worst enemies letting these radical minorities try to disassemble the laws that have stood here since confederation.

You the citizens of Canada have the choice to vote in much more normal minded people into power. Act now before its too late.

Wes

 

[cplcaldwell]

You're making some very good points, but, personally, I'm worried. I'm worried by the political pressures of a Muslim minority in Ontario trying to make the Sharia a parallel provincial law. Fortunately for all of us, they were unsuccessful. There is also the issue of present, non-integrated (partly because of the policies of multiculturalism) immigrant minorities with explosive nationality. In 20 years, the majority population in both Holland and Belgium is gonna be Muslim.

I note your worries. I think they are valid.

Really all I can offer to that is a 'glass half full argument'. As to Muslims, I say, let their kids spend a few years in our mediocre education system and wandering around Eaton Centre or West Edmonton Mall and I wonder how radical they'll be. I'm leaving myself open there because it is quite clear that theory ain't getting validation in the UK, at least of late.

Multiculturalism is a bugaboo. It is too often being used as license in this country. We are a country and a nation of nations but we are a country thus, due allegiance.

One of the big problems (IMHO) with Islam is that it does not seem to differentiate between the spiritual or theological allegiance and the temporal allegiance. I am a fairly sanguine guy but I often feel like saying to people with this philosophy "render unto Caesar what is Caesars and shut the frig up".

Could it change? Clearly we'd need the kind of scenario I picture above (which has worked so far...mostly) and/or a reformation in Islam (google "Ijtihad" or try this link).

PS One of the things that worries me is what RMacQueen noted "One could argue that the act of 9/11 and our reaction to it is bringing our culture down on it's own.  The increased security and it's resultant paranoia is slowly eroding our very way of life and giving ammunition to the radicals." To wit, we have nothing to fear but fear itself, and man, are we ever terrified!

 

[Tolstoyevsky]

There are some excellent books on immigration and multiculturalism, particularly "Who Gets In: What's Wrong with Canada's Immigration Program and How to Fix It" by Daniel Stoffman and "Selling Illusions, the Myth of Multiculturalism in Canada" by Neil Bissoondath.