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A Deeply Fractured US

brihard said:
The point I’m making is that Trump is beclowning himself, and through his buffoonery and intemperate speeches is compromising the collective security alliance overall. His statements only embolden adversaries. He will sell anyone and everything down the river to get reelected.
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Switch out Trump for Biden. Same same.
 
I'm not sure I can get behind the Putin is evil and the biggest threat to NATO.

There are a few of us here that were around and serving in the 50s to 70s. The world was a much more dangerous place and closer to WW3 than it is now. Putin would've been considered a lightweight back then.
 
FJAG said:
Not on the defence issue. There, Trump stands out in a field by himself.

Old doddering geezers, on the other hand, I can agree with.

🍻
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Yes he does. No new wars under his leadership. Bankrupted Iran back into their caves. Deciminated ISIS and built up the US military. He had rocketman under control and when Trump launched a rocket, he didn't forecast it, and took out high value targets, not empty launch sites. Say what you will, the world was a quieter place under Trump. That's the result of backing up your words and not taking shit from terrorists and bullies.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
I'm not sure I can get behind the Putin is evil and the biggest threat to NATO.

There are a few of us here that were around and serving in the 50s to 70s. The world was a much more dangerous place and closer to WW3 than it is now. Putin would've been considered a lightweight back then.
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Though, arguably, the prospect of a no-shit, “in the dust that was a city” all-in nuclear war likely constrained the sort of militarism we’re seeing out of Russia and Putin now. Ukraine is the biggest state on state conflict since Korea. I’m not inclined to think the Russians won’t learn lessons and improve their military from this. They’ve shown the willingness to invade Ukraine and to stick it out, and have made belligerent noises towards others, including Poland, the baltics, and Finland. Russia seems to have psychologically sucked itself back into a fantasy of a Russian empire- but I’ve lost faith that they won’t give serious consideration to actually trying that over a span of some decades if they see faltering resolve among NATO.

I’m also very concerned about the message this sends to western allies in Taiwan and, to a lesser extent, Japan. Sorting out Russia serves a deterrence purpose against China. Unless we’re cool with them decided to take the bite bite that is Taiwan, and choke it down…
 
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I'm more concerned with the communists in our own country's governments and the US one, than I am about Putin.
 
lenaitch said:
Like Trump or not; think of us as a free-rider or not, but what idiot says he would encourage a belligerent country to "do whatever the hell they wanted to" another country.
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Was the comment not directed at NATO countries?

Ukraine isn't a NATO country, of course. Not now, and not back in 2014. Pity we didn't all have such an iron backbone back then. If Obama had helped Ukraine to slap down Russia then, where would matters lie now?
 
Fishbone Jones said:
Yes he does. No new wars under his leadership.
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"Start wars" isn't the only measure of conflict though:

Trump massively escalated the country’s existing wars in multiple theaters, leading to skyrocketing casualties. In Afghanistan, he substantially upped the amount of airstrikes, leading to a 330 percent increase in civilian deaths. In Yemen, he escalated both U.S. counterterrorism activities and support for the devastating Saudi-led war against the Houthis. According to the United Kingdom’s Bureau of Investigative Journalism, there were 2,243 drone strikes in just the first two years of Trump’s presidency, compared with 1,878 in the entire eight years of the Obama administration.
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Maybe he did start one war - the one that the Taliban launched after Trump's dumb "we will withdraw - peace" treaty.

Fishbone Jones said:
Bankrupted Iran back into their caves.
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Iran is neither bankrupt nor without an ongoing agenda to destabilize the region.

Amid much sturm und drang, the administration’s strenuous efforts have left Iran economically weaker yet politically stronger in the region, and poised to resume its nuclear program. Under the rubric of “maximum pressure,” the administration unilaterally withdrew from the eight-party Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action, restored unilateral sanctions, and tried without success to curb Iranian operations in Syria and Iraq.
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Fishbone Jones said:
Deciminated ISIS
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The coalition against ISIL started in 2013 under Obama. Even the Russians joined in supporting Assad against ISIL in 2015. That's one of those wars Trump inherited.

Fishbone Jones said:
and built up the US military.
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He basically brought it back up from Obama's high point of $721 B in 2010. Trump's first defence budget was $656 B. His last was $774B. Biden has taken it to $759, $838, $905, and $910 B. Giving credit where credit is due will you accept that Biden has built up the US military more than Trump did?
Fishbone Jones said:
He had rocketman under control
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Yeah. Control.

On November 20, 2017, U.S. President Donald Trump announced that North Korea was re-listed by the State Department as a state sponsor of terrorism.[128][129] Japan and South Korea welcomed the move as a method of increasing pressure on North Korea to negotiate about denuclearization.[130]

On November 28, 2017, North Korea fired an intercontinental ballistic missile in the first such launch from the country in more than two months. The missile, believed by the U.S. military to be an ICBM, was launched from Sain Ni and flew roughly 1,000 km (620 mi) before landing in the Sea of Japan.[131]

After North Korea claimed that the missile was capable of "carrying [a] super-heavy [nuclear] warhead and hitting the whole mainland of the U.S.", Kim-Jong-Un announced that they had "finally realized the great historic cause of completing the state nuclear force",[132] putting them in a position of strength to push the United States into talks.[133]

2019[edit]​

In August 2019 Japan has upgraded its estimate of North Korea's nuclear weapons capability in an upcoming annual Defence White Paper, saying it seems Pyongyang has achieved the miniaturization of warheads. The defence report will maintain Japan's contention that North Korea's nuclear and ballistic missile programs pose a "serious and imminent threat" to its security after recent meetings between Donald Trump and the North's leader, Kim Jong Un, failed to make progress on denuclearisation.[134][135]

2020[edit]​

Bruce Klingner of the U.S.-based Heritage Foundation estimated, in June 2020, that North Korea has likely built "eight or more additional nuclear weapons" since the 2018 summit.[136]

On October 10, 2020, North Korea unveiled a massive ICBM during a military parade for the 75th anniversary of the Workers' Party of Korea, with CNN reporting that military analysts believe it is one of the world's largest road-mobile ballistic missiles.[137]
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Fishbone Jones said:
and when Trump launched a rocket, he didn't forecast it, and took out high value targets, not empty launch sites.
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"Empty?"
The massive barrage of strikes hit more than 85 targets at seven locations, including command and control headquarters, intelligence centers, rockets and missiles, drone and ammunition storage sites and other facilities that were connected to the militias or the IRGC’s Quds Force, the Guard’s expeditionary unit that handles Tehran’s relationship with and arming of regional militias. And President Joe Biden made it clear in a statement that there will be more to come.
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Fishbone Jones said:
Say what you will, the world was a quieter place under Trump. That's the result of backing up your words and not taking shit from terrorists and bullies.
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Yup. When you stick your head in the sand the world seems a quieter place. Would Trump have stood up to Russia in 2022 when he had previously tried to induce Zelensky to interfere in the election against Biden?

🍻
 
Stick my head in the sand🙄 Sure, OK.

That would be like sucking up everything the Biden WH spews out, as gospel, then using it to try prove a point. Nobody is threatened by Biden. They just don't trust a geriatric, dementia patient to remember what he said yesterday. We won't go into Biden extorting the President of Ukraine to fire the prosecutor that was going to cut off the biden cash flow from Birisma.
 
Fishbone Jones said:
Stick my head in the sand🙄 Sure, OK.

That would be like sucking up everything the Biden WH spews out, as gospel, then using it to try prove a point. Nobody is threatened by Biden. They just don't trust a geriatric, dementia patient to remember what he said yesterday. We won't go into Biden extorting the President of Ukraine to fire the prosecutor that was going to cut off the biden cash flow from Birisma.
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So far Biden's administration has given $75 B in aid to Ukraine and, as mentioned before, has upped the defence budget by $136 B so he seems to be doing quite well threatening people and putting his money where his mouth is.

That said, no one here is talking up Biden. If it wasn't for the poltroon who he's running against I'm sure he'd be out on his ear and be a one term wonder like Trump was. On the other hand those people who spew the most vitriol against Biden are the ones who keep talking about Trump like he's the second coming of Jesus. IMHO, neither one deserves to be president.

But as you say, "nobody is threatened by Biden." You can't say that about Trump. I'll take a dementia patient over a psychopath any day of the week.

🍻
 

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Do you really think Biden is the final decision maker in the White House? I don't.
 
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