The War in Ukraine

[GK .Dundas]

Tonnage is only one metric. These were some of the most modern ships in the Russian navy and quite heavily armed. Likely had her air defense sensors off to avoid detection, but spent to long in one place. I think a lesson learned for South Pacific and Mediterranean ops is mobile basing, so your fleet support is always moving around.

You know for I was actually amazed by the actual amount of hardware they've managed to pack into her. She's what 950 tonnes?
Of course all tied up to dock during wartime doesn't strike me as particularly safe or smart.

 

[brihard]

That's really my point. We have existing hulls that could carry more weapons if we decided that they should have them. Obviously that takes engineering, but the gross metrics indicate it should be feasible.

Would I prefer a new ship with more speed. Sure but if something can be modernized economically then lets do so.

I come from the point of view that Canada's armed forces should be armed. It seems to me to be a great waste of resources to build ships, even training ships that are not capable of carrying armaments. Air defence and anti-ship capabilities should be built into every ship. IMHO, even a mine sweeper should come with an air defence system and an appropriate surface weapon system. One can always use an "armed" ship in a peacetime role. Unarmed ships have limited value.

Any ship without at least some decent SHORAD is, in this day and age, fixing to become a war grave.

 

[Kirkhill]

250 tonnes and Finnish.

Hamina-class missile boat - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Complement	26
Sensors and processing systems	Saab Ceros 200 with 9LV FCS (Saab) Consilium Selesmar maritime radar TRS-3D/16-ES multimode acquisition 3D radar (EADS) ANCS 2000 Combat Management System (EADS) MSSR 2000 I IFF (EADS) EOMS (SAGEM) Simrad Subsea Toadfish sonar Sonac/PTA towed array sonar (Finnyards)
Electronic warfare & decoys	MASS (Multi Ammunition Soft-kill System) (Rheinmetall) Decoys: Philax chaff, IR flares Smoke system: Lacroix ATOS EMS: Matilda radar warning receiver (Thales)
Armament	1 × Bofors 57 mm/70 SAK Mk3 2 × 12.7 mm machine guns (NSV) 8 × Umkhonto-IR SAM (Denel) 4 × RBS-15 Mk2 SSM (Saab) 1 × rail for depth charges or mines (Sea Mine 2000)

Weaponry
Original	After modernization
1 × Bofors 57 mm dual-purpose gun (transferred to Pohjanmaa class)	1 × Bofors 40 Mk4 multi purpose gun
2 × 12,7mm machine guns	1 × Saab Trackfire remote weapon station with a 12,7mm machine gun, 2 × 12,7mm machine guns
none	Initially Torped 45, later Torped 47
RBS15 SFIII anti-ship missile	Gabriel Mk.5 anti-ship missile
Atlas ANCS 2000 combat system	Saab 9LV combat management system
none	Kongsberg ST2400 towed sonar (from Rauma class)
Saab Ceros 200 radar and optronic tracking fire control director	updated Saab Ceros 200 radar and optronic tracking fire control director
TRS-3D phased array C-band radar	updated TRS-3D phased array C-band radar

Hamina Class: Finland’s Modernized Missile Craft Enhance Baltic Defense

As Finland readies for NATO membership, its fleet is preparing for the next generation of maritime defense in the Baltic.

www.usni.org

Not hard to stick lots of weapons and sensors in a hull.

 

[dapaterson]

That's really my point. We have existing hulls that could carry more weapons if we decided that they should have them. Obviously that takes engineering, but the gross metrics indicate it should be feasible.

We have no hulls in shape to take on more weapons.

 

[brihard]

We have no hulls in shape to take on more weapons.

Not our own weapons, anyway.

 

[FJAG]

We have no hulls in shape to take on more weapons.

The AOPS is so new they are still making them.

The Kingston class was at one point touted for mid-life refit to take it to 2045-55 but this was stopped with the suggestion a new vessel would enter service by 2020. IMHO we are always looking for new ships. One thing about weapon systems is that they can be moved to new ships as long as they are still effective for the role.

Honestly, I think that the CAF compromises itself out of viable system due to not having a sellable vision beyond peacetime. The problem is that we are, once again, already at war. We need to prepare now for its next stage. An armed MCDV is better than an unarmed one. It is much cheaper to refit an MCDV now than build a new ship. The Navy needs to convince the CDS, the MND and all of government that it has a viable plan. Wishing for new baubles a decade from now is not a viable plan.

 

[brihard]

The AOPS is so new they are still making them.

The Kingston class was at one point touted for mid-life refit to take it to 2045-55 but this was stopped with the suggestion a new vessel would enter service by 2020. IMHO we are always looking for new ships. One thing about weapon systems is that they can be moved to new ships as long as they are still effective for the role.

Honestly, I think that the CAF compromises itself out of viable system due to not having a sellable vision beyond peacetime. The problem is that we are, once again, already at war. We need to prepare now for its next stage. An armed MCDV is better than an unarmed one. It is much cheaper to refit an MCDV now than build a new ship. The Navy needs to convince the CDS, the MND and all of government that it has a viable plan. Wishing for new baubles a decade from now is not a viable plan.

MCDV are already designed to accept modular systems in 20 foot ISO compliant modules on the rear deck. Is there potential to bolt on new weapon systems this way? I have no illusion we'd likely see anything very high end that way, but what about SHORAD that can contribute to an anti-UAS bubble?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

All vessels are constrained by stability issues and for warships, arcs of fire and sensor interference. I suspect that the RWS system for the CSC is close in weight to the old 40mm Bofors. It would also be a good way to test and familiarize the RCN with the system, before spending gobs of money on them. So I would mount them on the operating Kingstons as a "trial".

 

[McG]

Because systems integration is the cheap part?

 

[KevinB]

Older ships are better off not being used. If you do need to use them, just add plug and play containers. While they may raise the CoG, you’re not spending a fortune in systems integration as the container should only need power - everything else comes from a linked controlling ship.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Because systems integration is the cheap part?

Cost of doing business in a "Armed" Force

 

[Lumber]

Man, wait until you guys find out what is happening with the MCDVs.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Man, wait until you guys find out what is happening with the MCDVs.

Hover MCDVs?

 

[Lumber]

Hover MCDVs?

Oh is that what they mean by lay up?

 

[NavyShooter]

I've heard rumbles about hulls being in rough shape...not as bad as some of the Frigates though.

 

[McG]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1792443358285087227

 

[dimsum]

Man, wait until you guys find out what is happening with the MCDVs.

Kingston-class razor blades?

Edit to add: They should be given out to former crew members in a collectable display format.