The Geopolitics of it all

[Colin Parkinson]

A bit ironic since Poland has been historically the subject of actual invasions and forced migrations.

There are legitimate refugees in the world. Right now, there are more displaced people than at any point in history. They didn’t vote to be born and live in those areas, and just telling them to emigrate is a non-starter.

Regardless, broad-brush calling them “[insert perjorative] invaders” doesn’t help the situation.

The West is a series of lifeboats bobbing around in a ocean of chaos. Like all Lifeboats, they can only hold so many people. If the seas are calm, then the number is higher, if the seas are not calm and the number is to high, the lifeboat is swamped. It's a metaphor but I think it is fairly accurate.

I think one has to look at the definition of refugee much harder and say " This man is travelling with his family and directly (or fairly directly) from a war torn place, therefore they are refuges. Individual fighting age males that have bounced through 3-4 countries from a area that may or may not be in crisis are not really meeting the definition at this point.

If we want to keep our boat afloat and keep the existing population accepting of taking refugees, then we better be very careful of who and how many we take each year.

 

[dimsum]

And why is it wrong for people to say "No!"?

My point of contention was more about the comment that they’re not migrants/refugees, they’re an invading force.

Coming from an Islamic country doesn’t mean you are part of the regime. They hate on each other just as much, if not more, based on Shia vs Sunni (and the subsets therein). If those people have had no history of supporting the (bad) regime or extremist ideology, then there is really no difference than other migrants other than country of origin. We don’t want to be going down the path of “if you’re from Country X then you’re bad” again.

The EU nations can certainly say no snd face the consequences. If they really want to push it, leave the EU.

 

[Kirkhill]

My point of contention was more about the comment that they’re not migrants/refugees, they’re an invading force.

Coming from an Islamic country doesn’t mean you are part of the regime. They hate on each other just as much, if not more, based on Shia vs Sunni (and the subsets therein). If those people have had no history of supporting the (bad) regime or extremist ideology, then there is really no difference than other migrants other than country of origin. We don’t want to be going down the path of “if you’re from Country X then you’re bad” again.

The EU nations can certainly say no snd face the consequences. If they really want to push it, leave the EU.

Good, bad or indifferent. What is wrong with just saying no? Indiscriminately.

 

[daftandbarmy]

My point of contention was more about the comment that they’re not migrants/refugees, they’re an invading force.

Coming from an Islamic country doesn’t mean you are part of the regime. They hate on each other just as much, if not more, based on Shia vs Sunni (and the subsets therein). If those people have had no history of supporting the (bad) regime or extremist ideology, then there is really no difference than other migrants other than country of origin. We don’t want to be going down the path of “if you’re from Country X then you’re bad” again.

The EU nations can certainly say no snd face the consequences. If they really want to push it, leave the EU.

They might not be invaders, but they can certainly create a crisis and destabilize a country that's not ready, or willing, to accept them all... viz

Shelters for migrants are filling up across Germany as attitudes toward the newcomers harden

Officials across Germany are sounding the alarm that they are no longer able to accommodate migrants who are applying for asylum.

apnews.com

and...

Germany: Asylum applications rose sharply in 2023​

More than 350,000 people applied for asylum in Germany in 2023, the highest number since 2016. Opposition parties have blamed the government for not controlling what they call a "migration crisis."


"The government is not coming to grips with the migration crisis," said the deputy leader of the parliamentary party of the bloc formed by the Christian Democrats (CDU) and their Bavarian sister party Christian Social Union (CSU).

"Despite the strain on municipalities, the [coalition government] is firmly sticking by its intentions such as making it easier to obtain citizenship, thus giving ever more encouragement for further illegal migration," Andrea Lindholz of the CSU said.

Lindholz criticized that the rules facilitating deportations would not come into force until February at the earliest, and also accused the government of pursuing a "multiculti ideal" with its citizenship plans.

Germany: Asylum applications rose sharply in 2023 – DW – 01/09/2024

More than 350,000 people applied for asylum in Germany in 2023, the highest number since 2016. Opposition parties have blamed the government for not controlling what they call a "migration crisis."

www.dw.com

 

[dimsum]

They might not be invaders, but they can certainly create a crisis and destabilize a country that's not ready, or willing, to accept them all... viz

Shelters for migrants are filling up across Germany as attitudes toward the newcomers harden

Officials across Germany are sounding the alarm that they are no longer able to accommodate migrants who are applying for asylum.

apnews.com

and...

Germany: Asylum applications rose sharply in 2023​

More than 350,000 people applied for asylum in Germany in 2023, the highest number since 2016. Opposition parties have blamed the government for not controlling what they call a "migration crisis."


"The government is not coming to grips with the migration crisis," said the deputy leader of the parliamentary party of the bloc formed by the Christian Democrats (CDU) and their Bavarian sister party Christian Social Union (CSU).

"Despite the strain on municipalities, the [coalition government] is firmly sticking by its intentions such as making it easier to obtain citizenship, thus giving ever more encouragement for further illegal migration," Andrea Lindholz of the CSU said.

Lindholz criticized that the rules facilitating deportations would not come into force until February at the earliest, and also accused the government of pursuing a "multiculti ideal" with its citizenship plans.

Germany: Asylum applications rose sharply in 2023 – DW – 01/09/2024

More than 350,000 people applied for asylum in Germany in 2023, the highest number since 2016. Opposition parties have blamed the government for not controlling what they call a "migration crisis."

www.dw.com

Here’s a bit more context for the new regulation:

EU approves major overhaul of migration rules

The new rules are designed to make EU states share responsibility for hosting asylum seekers.

www.bbc.com

The question is should the EU just spread the benefits, or the issues as well? This regulation seems to be a consequence of countries like Poland, etc saying no to immigrants, forcing Germany, etc to take them. There are already countries taking the brunt of the migrants.

I also find it interesting that this regulation is getting pushback from both left and right wings of the EU spectrum.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Here’s a bit more context for the new regulation:

EU approves major overhaul of migration rules

The new rules are designed to make EU states share responsibility for hosting asylum seekers.

www.bbc.com

The question is should the EU just spread the benefits, or the issues as well? This regulation seems to be a consequence of countries like Poland, etc saying no to immigrants, forcing Germany, etc to take them. There are already countries taking the brunt of the migrants.

I also find it interesting that this regulation is getting pushback from both left and right wings of the EU spectrum.

Well, Poland is kind of full right now...


More than 17 million Ukrainian refugees have crossed into Poland since Russia’s full-scale invasion began in February 2022. Today, more than 950,000 Ukrainians are living in Poland, almost all of whom are women and children — an increase in population that has put pressure on Poland’s health system to expand services.

Poland | Project HOPE

More than 17 million Ukrainian refugees have crossed into Poland since Russia’s full-scale invasion began in February 2022.

www.projecthope.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The EU nations can certainly say no snd face the consequences. If they really want to push it, leave the EU.

The EU is not keen on countries leaving it, hence the reason they are punishing the UK, to keep the others inline. Personally I think the EU has overstepped the practical limits of it's capabilities and should be scaled back to more of a trade treaty.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The EU is not keen on countries leaving it, hence the reason they are punishing the UK, to keep the others inline. Personally I think the EU has overstepped the practical limits of it's capabilities and should be scaled back to more of a trade treaty.

Like back when it all got started?

The EEC was designed to create a common market among its members through the elimination of most trade barriers and the establishment of a common external trade policy. The treaty also provided for a common agricultural policy, which was established in 1962 to protect EEC farmers from agricultural imports. The first reduction in EEC internal tariffs was implemented in January 1959, and by July 1968 all internal tariffs had been removed. Between 1958 and 1968 trade among the EEC’s members quadrupled in value.

European Community (EC)

European Community (EC), former association designed to integrate the economies of Europe. The term also refers to the “European Communities,” which originally comprised the European Economic Community (EEC), the European Coal and Steel Community (ECSC; dissolved in 2002), and the European Atomic

www.britannica.com

 

[FJAG]

It's like any bureaucracy. Once its finds itself at the limits of its authority to act, it looks for wider limits and new fields that need managing.

 

[daftandbarmy]

It's like any bureaucracy dictatorship. Once its finds itself at the limits of its authority to act, it looks for wider limits and new fields that need managing.

There, FTFY